1656: Relational Leadership for Business Growth with Joshua Evarts

Robert Plank 0:00 What if relationships were the central theme of your business? We're here to chat about all of that. is a very excellent book, and it's a straightforward guide that addresses the one aspect most business owners often overlook. It's not your product, it's not your pricing. It's not even your marketing. It is your business relationships. And the man, the myth, the legend himself, Mr. Joshua Evarts from Meridian, Ohio, just outside of Boise, just past the railroad tracks, is here to help us out because he draws from decades of professional corporate leadership and a decade of experience as the owner of the Vault Cigar Lounge, and he makes a compelling case that likeability is not merely a soft skill; it is your most powerful competitive advantage. So, Mr. Joshua, how the heck are you today?

Josh Evarts 0:53 Robert, Man, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the show. I've had an opportunity to to watch a number of your podcasts, and yeah, it's just an honor to be out here. Yeah, thanks for having me. I am so excited about this book, and more than the book is really the message. So in my 30 years, where I did three really distinct things, so I built software for law enforcement and the military, which led me all around the world to see different business, different cultures, different environments that people were operating in. Subsequently, entered into real estate development. So after I kind of left my software world and started redeveloping the downtown in Meridian, Idaho, where I live, and one of the building projects that we did during that that rehabilitation of our downtown was the Bank of Meridian, built in 1905, and my wife and I, who live in a little tiny home a couple blocks away, made that our living room. Our home was was built in 1913, and it doesn't have really living room space. And we both loved to smoke cigars and drink wine, drink scotch. So we made that building into our living room, and I made a fateful air that I invited the mayor at the time and her husband to come have cigars and wine with us one night. And she said, "Josh, you should really open a cigar lounge. And I'm like, "Mayor, I don't really like people. I'm like, so how's that going to work out for me if I open up my living room to everybody? And it was the wise thing to do. So, so opened up the cigar lounge almost 10 years ago. So, in the process of really examining like three really different professional adventures, the common thread in all three of them were relationships. Having you know, developing those relationships, developing culture that's healthy, and what I found was that when you develop culture that is specifically targeted towards developing relationships, you attract a couple things: you attract healthy employees, you attract healthy customers, you attract healthy vendor relationships, and that's really the story of the book.

Robert Plank 3:04 Very nice, so you've seen some things, you've had different multiple lifetimes, and you have these different perspectives and these different industries, and you say it's all about relationships. And where do people get this wrong? Because I know, like when I was younger, some of these keywords that you're mentioning, like culture, it was all very vague, but then it seems like as as the I don't know if like the the language has evolved due to AI and social media and podcasting or what the heck's happened. But I feel like in the last few years these ideas are more solid and concrete. Like when you you can go to say like Nike's website or you know Harley Davidson. These are the examples people throw around about like okay, when a brand has a personality, you can read up on these things, and it seems like it's no longer corporate speak. It actually means something. And then this idea of like the the networking, the relationships. I, I feel like when it's more like structured and deliberate and the routine, and forceful. I find it more helpful than just like, oh, go out and make some friends, leave it to random chance, things, see what happens. But what do you think?

Josh Evarts 4:13 Yeah, so we've had three really big things that have happened over the last 30 years, kind of during my professional career. Number one, we got the internet, right? And and I would just say, let me just make a big technology bucket. So we got the internet, we got email, we got smartphones, we got social media, and all these things made the flow of information much much easier, faster. We we we just got really really good at at sharing information and creating tools that could connect people. When my wife and I were dating 35 years ago, we had to write letters, and we had the one long-distance phone call a week because we were living 900 miles apart during college, and so that was the limit. Nowadays, you have FaceTime, and I could be real-time. Video calling anybody, so so we have a much more connected world due to technology. But there's a lack. What what that what that created was, I believe, a lack of authenticity. So because we became really really connected, especially with the advent of of social media, we've confused influence and likes and followers with authentic relationships. So that's kind of the first thing. Technology kind of entered the picture and confused relationships. The second thing that happened is we had COVID. So six years ago, we get this worldwide pandemic. We send the workforce home. We wear masks. We social distance. And again, relationships got a little bit confused, and they got more difficult. And the third thing that's happened is really this AI revolution, which is beautiful. And I'm not an anti-technology guy. Like I made a lot of money in technology. I think it's an enabler. I think it's important for for the continued advancement of civilization. But it is reshaping relationships, and we're now having relationships with agents, and we're having relationships with large data models, and it is providing us even greater velocity in how we interact with data and how things are are fed to us. So I think all three of these things have created something where the market has been required to respond and become more deliberate in how we foster authentic relationships, and so I think that's some of what you're feeling. That's some of what you're seeing with these larger companies, where they're recognizing that that those those technology things are enablers, in fact. But we, but if they are not pointing towards an authentic relationship, which results in a business transaction, then we've missed the mark.

Robert Plank 6:44 Very powerful, it's good to have that recap. It's it feels like so much has changed in 30 years, right? It feels like every three to five years there was some other disruption that no one saw coming, even though like shouldn't we have? But then we have to adapt. And you're saying that we need to rise above the superficial because the likes, the comments, sure that's great. But what you and me are doing here, the video chat, you can only squeeze in so many of those during the day, right? Only so much time, only so much energy. You have to set each one up. So us being here is the the the real thing that that can't really scale, right? When you have 1000s of likes, well, what does that really mean? Versus us, a couple of guys having a real conversation, and so this book you have, you say there's eight lessons in relational leadership, and that that term like relational or relationships, like it kind of overwhelms me because there's like five different ways it could go, but then when I think of it in like a technical sense, I think like a relational database, right, where you have like this table linked to that table in like a one to one or a one to many or a many to many so I start to think like okay that makes sense you have like your your peers and your friends and your amplifiers but you tell me when we're talking about relational leadership just to make sure we're on the same page like what is that concept?

Josh Evarts 7:58 Yeah, what I'm really talking about is, is understanding interpersonal relationships. So first of all, one of the one of the questions I get asked quite a bit is like, you know, who's the target audience for this book, right? Like, you know, is it is it senior levels, C-suite people, and everything? I believe everybody has got a place in their life where they are leading something and leading people. Whether you're a teacher in a classroom, you're a basketball coach, you are a C-suite executive, you could be leading a shift. You know, at a at a at a subway restaurant, you could you could be a mom at home who's leading littles and trying to get them to develop into productive human beings, so everybody is leading somewhere. So it's really diving into what does authentic relationship look like where you're leading. So a couple of the lessons in the book that we talk about is you know things like don't underestimate conversations. So a lot of times when we are in these places where we're leading, sometimes we don't listen, and sometimes we we're not hearing the things that are happening around us that could inform how we lead, how we make decisions. There's a chapter in the book where I specifically talk about technology and that disruption that you mentioned. This idea that authenticity trumps followers, and not that social media isn't important. You and I are doing this podcast to try to push influence as far out in the marketplace as we can, but it doesn't replace the one-on-one conversations. And I think that's why podcasting is so beautiful because you and I get to have this kind of conversation, and and and yet, I need to be a listener, and I need to make sure that I am making further connection with people. Otherwise, this is just becomes noise, and and and it's red ocean, and becomes tough to distinguish what's healthy, what's right, what's true. And so, diving into those things-that's that's kind of the. Purpose of the book is is how do we how do we internally and I wrote this book for me like these are the lessons that I learned and as I get older I don't want to forget them like I don't want to forget how I got to where I am today and I wrote the book because I thought that it'd be a great reminder to me and there might be one other person out there that might be able to take one or two truths out of the book and improve their day to day and how they interact with people.

Robert Plank 10:27 Well, very nice. And I'm looking at that table of contents right now and looking at some of those lessons because we hear like, "Ooh, eight lessons. Like, what are those being? And I think you you think about the the common factors that kind of come and go, right? And it's it's weird how coincidences work, and keep hearing like the same things again and again. And I feel like in the past, like week and a half, independently, five different people have said this term like leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less, right? That's John C. Maxwell, and so that's like okay, cool. Instead of this vague term leadership being thrown around, we're like, okay, well, who are we influencing through connection and trust? And that's what you're talking about here. And so, and we have this this crazy, silly, kooky title called "If Jesus Smokes Cigars." I'm like, what does that have to? I mean, I know you have the cigar lounge, but like, what's the relevance? And what does that mean If Jesus Smokes Cigars?

Josh Evarts 11:23 Yeah, no, it's a great question. In fact, the publisher, when we when I first submitted the manuscript with that title, they're like, "Did you intentionally, Josh, try to pick the two most inflammatory things and polarizing things that you could, faith and smoking, as the title? Because you just want to drive people away from your book, and and no, like the the the book is not any kind of theological treatment of Jesus as the author of relationships, but what I witnessed in in sort of my reading of the Bible and and understanding who Jesus is is that his his his influence was all about people, and so so there's no you know scripture you know in the book or anything like that. But I think it's really really important to look at the life of a person 2000 years ago that didn't have the internet, that didn't have social media, that didn't have AI, and yet made such an impact that everybody recognizes that name, and he spent 30 plus years on the planet just building relationships. And we talk about that name even today. The smoking cigars really came because as we did the cigar lounge, which was really the last big business venture that that my wife and I engaged in, that is where a lot of these lessons got codified because here's the unique thing about cigar lounges: the common denominator of a cigar lounge is people lighting their money on fire, one cigar at a time. Like that's that's literally what we do, and we do it in community. So when my wife and I started the cigar lounge, our our vision statement, mission statement, whatever you want to call it, was to develop a premium cigar experience where the primary currency we exchange is relationship. At the end of the day, Amazon won. You can get cigars cheaper online. You can get free shipping. So the unique selling proposition that I had was relationship. So it didn't matter whether you were black or white, whether you were religious, not religious, whether you had a job or you were jobless, looking for a job. We wanted to create a community where everybody felt welcome and people felt better when they left than when they came in. And so, so, so that that that codifying and that really deeply understanding those interpersonal relationships, as it got revealed in a cigar lounge, is really why we picked cigar as part of the title to finish it off.

Robert Plank 13:50 Well, very cool. And like you talk about this kind of the hangout spot, the third space. This is another idea that it hurts my head a little bit because you figure, okay, pre 2000 ish, you had no choice, right? Like you, you had to go somewhere to buy something, right? You had to go to your Sears or your Target or whatever. And like, there's a new bookstore that opened in my town, and it's like all of the shelves are like perfect, and every book on the shelf is untouched. And I see people in there, but and and they're kind of like me, like kind of you kind of turn your head and look at all the cover, the you know the titles. But no, I don't really see anyone really like reading a book or buying a book. It's just kind of there, and you figure like there's a weird before and after with the the internet and e-commerce, isn't there? It's like before. Well, you had to go to your Montgomery Ward because you had no choice. But then now that we have all this efficiency and things delivered by mail, it's like that they put that out of business. But then the consequence is then you lost the shopping malls, right? You lost the third space. You lost the cigar lounge. And then in kind of like the I don't. I don't know if you call it like the the post e-commerce or post internet, but like post something era. It's like to to then to rediscover that and to go to say the cigar lounge because you want to, not because you have to. It's it's kind of like intangible, just magic you're trying to recapture and like, do you do you think about this at all? Are are you better at articulating this idea of like kind of rediscovering the old that we used to have no choice for, but now we have to kind of make it work again?

Josh Evarts 15:32 Well, and I think that's why this whole concept of people and relationships is so important, and why I would spend the time and the resources to write 60,000 words. Robert, you mention a bookstore. We literally had a bookstore open up in our downtown, about two blocks away from my cigar lounge, about three months ago. And I finally went in there and visited them when we released the book, and wanted to talk to them and kind of wanted to see what it was about. Because when I heard a bookstore was going in, I'm like, these people are crazy. Yeah, in this era, what gives? Like, what are they doing? I went in there, Robert. What they had built is they had a full coffee bar for their customers in the morning. They had a full wine bar experience. They had a reading room. So the number of books that were on the wall, you know, I want to guess that there were maybe 600 titles of books, and it was beautiful in there. But what they focused on was people and community, and creating space where people could come in. And they had a whole list of events, like we're going to do this book reading event this night, and we're going to do this review, or we have this author coming in, and they created experience, and I think that's where, as we look at retail specifically, you know, the reason that the Apple stores became such a phenomenon, you can order all those Apple products online, right? Like you, you don't have to go in, but the Apple store delivered such a rich experience where you were greeted right as you came in, and you were you were given a slot and then you had somebody come meet with you and they could talk to you about all the products. It was the experience that's what mattered. It was it was the interpersonal relationships that created that environment that that made that retail journey successful for Apple. And I think that's where retailers are really going to have to look. The days of sitting at your cash register waiting for it to ring, and just hoping people come in and and grab something off the shelf. That's done, and that's been done for quite a while. And so I think people, as they reimagine what they deliver in that experience, we made fun of that that that episode of The Office where they opened up the the printer store down in Florida and and just all the the nonsense that was going on there, but there was some real beauty in that episode. Where you know, even before its time, it was trying to deliver something experiential with that crazy cast that that delivered that delivered on experience because that's where we're going to distinguish ourselves and how we deliver relationship.

Robert Plank 17:59 Well, very good. And am I crazy in in like needing? I don't I don't know what word to use besides faith, but I feel like I need to like use faith to to bridge the gap between the the non immediate revenue generating activities into what is maybe like having a more long term effect, right? Like when you're here on a podcast, like you're not making money, you're working for free, but it's developing your relationship. Who knows with you and me, or who knows who else will see your video? And even like when you do like the networking calls or the hanging out, I feel like I have to like use my logic to override my emotion because my emotion says, "Well, can't I be doing the the client work. Can't I be like you know doing paid traffic? And so I have to like kind of know that on faith. I know that like well, it doesn't make sense for present me, but it will make sense for future me. And I have to kind of like force it. And and I feel like some of these ideas like you're talking about, right? Like having the experience, going and making connections. At least for me, like I feel like have to have some some faith based future forcing to make it work. So, am I alone in this? Am I crazy?

Josh Evarts 19:09 No, not at all. There's an old saying in Texas that when you're in the room, you're in the deal. And I think one of the biggest questions that I've gotten over 30 years, where young business people come and talk to me, and like you know they'll always talk about the room. How do you get in that room? Like Josh, you ended up in this room, which opened up all these doors. And I think it was a a very intentional effort on my part to be curious. And as leaders, sometimes we you know we end up in leadership positions because we have a certain number of skill sets, or we've done it for a long, long time, and and and just earn that leadership role. But sometimes in that process of of of moving up the ladder, we do two things: we lose our curiosity, we've got it all figured out, like, and we're just kind of kind of doing the job. And and and secondly, we we underestimate the inputs that could be happening through conversation with people that are below us, and so so to your point, I think it's I think we need to be intentional about making sure we're always in those rooms and that we're creating margin for the conversations because that that's how we actually evaluate how we're impacting people, and and there have been so many conversations that I've had and and rooms that I've ended up in not be not because I was smarter than everybody else, but I was just willing to be there and I was willing to be a listener that opened up you know a rich opportunity to to to do something, and you know, professionally.

Robert Plank 20:45 Very nice. Well, you're speaking my language. I'm all about being that good listener, and some of these ideas that you mention about like being intentional and having the margin. That's all very useful for all of us. And so, you have this amazing book, , and you've taught us, I feel like 20 or 25 bonus lessons in this podcast. But to make sure we cover our bases, Mister Joshua Evarts, do you think there might be a missing question in this conversation that I should be asking you? I just don't know to ask you.

Josh Evarts 21:17 Yeah, so let's let's talk about culture. We've kind of we've kind of hit the wave tops of it in a couple places, but but one of the writing styles that I employed in this book, I was a history major when when I first started in college, and so I think that the failure to study the past creates an opportunity to repeat failures in the future, and so when I wrote the book, every lesson always begins with a historical figure, and I tell their story. And and so like you know the first chapter, you know lesson one is culture from execution. And so we began with the story of John Wooden, one of my favorite basketball coaches. I was a basketball player in high school and college, and I learned a lot from Coach Wooden. And and looking at his 11 championships at UCLA, and what Coach Wooden developed his pyramid of success, everything else was culture. He he he he wasn't focused on building national championships. He was focused on building culture, and culture is what attracted the talent. Culture is what attracted the coaches. Culture is what attracted supporters, and and that the the the result ended up being 11 championships by by by a men's basketball team, and so yeah, I think I think I think focusing on creating the culture that that that is relationally focused, it's really really key, and and can't lose sight of that, and very important.

Robert Plank 22:46 I like it, so that culture is important, but it's a really big idea, right? It could be tough to get our head around, and we won't figure it out instantly. And that is exactly why we need to dive into a book such as yours, which is ". That way, we can begin to wrap our head around this and and lead others and be a good listener and be someone that, as we said, is intentional with our relationships and uplifts others and is it a as a positive force and all those other things. That way, we can deliver a good experience and make others happy and more fulfilled, and and you know, make a good difference on this earth in our own life, in our own family, with our friends, with our business. Like there's all these benefits, and so whether you're running a business, building your career, or just trying to be better in the rooms you already occupy, then this book, If Jesus Smokes Cigars, will challenge you to stop hiding behind the process and start investing in people. And the place to find out more about this is going to ifjesus.com, that's I F jesus.com. And as we head over there and check out the book, is there anything else that we should know as far as what we'll find there, what we should do once we arrive?

Josh Evarts 24:01 No, we tried to make it as easy as possible. So if you go to ifjesus.com, you're going to have links to all the social media platforms. You're going to have links to different resources. So if you're looking for one-on-one coaching, if you're looking for, I've done all kinds of workshops for professional organizations on strategic planning, or or even development of you know your sales teams and and and kind of your pointy end of the sphere for your relationship building. So all those resources and and assets are out there. You can get in touch directly with me, and if you need a link to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any of the purchasers, and and also have the ability to buy the hardcover edition of the book directly from the website.

Robert Plank 24:46 Very nice, and I, I better hope that in the the bookstore that opened in Meridian stocks your book as well. They better, right?

Josh Evarts 24:53 Absolutely, It's on the shelf, it's on the shelf, had to be there, so.

Robert Plank 24:56 Better, better be as soon as you walk in, right? Prominently displayed on that little table they have. It should be for sure. Very nice, and so you need to check it out as well. You out there in podcast land by going to ifjesus.com and through hard won wisdom and the kind of direct talk you'd hear over a good cigar, Mr. Joshua Evarts explains why the most successful people in any room aren't always the smartest or the most talented, but instead they are the individuals that others genuinely want to be around. So to tap into some of this energy, knowledge, wisdom, you check out the book "If Jesus Smoked Cigars: 8 Lessons in Relational Leadership" by Joshua Evarts. But before I let you go, Mr. Joshua, it's time for the scary part of the podcast where I try to stump you. I try to put you on the spot by asking you about a fun or interesting quote or lesson that has served you. So, what comes to mind as far as fun or interesting quote or lesson?

Josh Evarts 25:50 Yeah, one of the lessons in the book that, that we talk about is, is, is being in the rooms, right? We talked about that a little bit before. So, how about I share a professional regret. So, in working with New Scotland Yard for in 2005, the bombings that happened over there, I that was part of the professional work that I was doing. I was offered an invitation to go to a dinner. I was traveling over there about every three weeks to work with the teams over there, and on on one of the trips, I I don't know if it was an issue with one of our like conflict and a schedule with one of our son's sports teams, but we missed the trip, and I remember the colonel that I was working for over there sharing with me like, hey, you know, bring some nice clothes. We have a dinner set up for you. And I had to call him a couple days before the trip and say, "Hey, Colonel, I'm so sorry I won't be able to make it. And it was a number of weeks later. I want to say about a month later. We were on the phone together, and he's like, "Josh, he's like, you really, really missed out on a dinner. And I said, "Colonel, I said, "You know, what? What do you mean? I just figured I was having dinner with you and your wife, and he's like, no. He's like, we had actually gotten permission to have you dine with the royal family. He's like, they wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for the work that you'd done over here to to help the United Kingdom, but we couldn't tell you that. Like, we had passed all your clearances, we'd made sure that it was authorized, but but we couldn't actually tell you about the dinner. So yeah, kind of a funny anecdote. Make sure you're a yes guy. Make sure that you're willing to make yourself available because there are going to be things in life that you can't plan for that you might miss out on.

Robert Plank 27:35 Oh yes, talk about the room that you wish you'd been in. Well, but there, there are other opportunities in the future, just not that one, so.

Josh Evarts 27:41 Just not that one.

Robert Plank 27:42 Yeah, it's a good lesson for us to learn from you, and we can learn many other valuable lessons in the book. If Jesus Smokes Cigars, 8 Lessons in Relational Leadership by Joshua Evarts. Thanks for being here, Mr. Joshua. I had so much fun. I got so excited, and I'm really glad that we both took the time to do this, so thank you for being here.

Josh Evarts 27:59 Robert, thank you, and and your audience. I appreciate you guys taking time to listen to this. It's so important. And Robert, I wish you all the best.

Robert Plank 28:08 Namaste, as the kids say.

Josh Evarts 28:10 Cheers.