Robert Plank 0:00 Dr. David Kountz, M.D. is a physician, medical educator, and a healthcare leader who has dedicated his career to improving patient care and training the next generation of healthcare professionals. He serves as the chief academic officer for Hackensack Meridian Health, and he oversees one of the nation's largest graduate medical education programs. He's the professor of medicine and senior associate dean for graduate medical education at the Hackensack Meridian School of Medicine, and he is the oldest son of pioneering transplant surgeon Dr. Samuel L. Kountz, and he combines personal insight with careful historical research to tell this inspiring story of a man whose perseverance and innovations changed medicine and continue to save lives. Today, we're here to chat about it, and it's all explained in this book, *A Life of Impact* a biography of Samuel L. Kountz, M.D. a story of resilience from Rural Arkansas in the Segregated South to Worldwide Recognition as a Pioneering Transplant Surgeon. So, Dr. David, what an incredible story we are in store for here, aren't we? Dr. David Kountz 1:15 I think so, and first of all, it's great to meet you, Robert, and thanks for the opportunity to be with you today. Robert Plank 1:21 Of course, and I'm here to learn. I'm here to take it all in. So, you tell me what is this book all about, and what was your dad all about? Dr. David Kountz 1:29 So, I began this book maybe 10 years ago, and it really began as a project to, like, a family project to educate his grandchildren, who he never met because he passed away early, to let them know a little bit about their grandfather. And as I would occasionally run into his colleagues, who are doctors kind of in my age group now, and I mentioned that to him, they said, you know, you should really expand it into a book for the, the general public, it shouldn't just be a limited family project. His life was so inspiring that it's a story that a lot of people should hear about. So that's really been the focus for the last three years, leading to the book's publication this summer. I wrote the book from the perspective of a colleague of his, not from necessarily a child, and I have been able, as I've moved into my adult career as a physician, to really appreciate the magnitude of his of his work, the struggles that he overcame, and the impact that we still see today in the field of medicine. So I think it's an inspiring story. It's certainly, as you can well imagine, a story that I think about his story almost every day, and I'm happy to share it. Robert Plank 2:51 Very nice, well, what time frame are we talking about? Because I I don't know how old you are, and we think about okay, how old your dad was, and the the period of segregation and what was even medically possible. So, what years were these? Dr. David Kountz 3:06 So, he was born in 1930 in a very, very small town in Arkansas, and he, he was the son of a Baptist minister. So, he, he was very fortunate to have this wonderful supportive family structure, but it was the segregated South. It was very few opportunities outside of maybe going into the clergy for him. And a story that I don't have in the book, but was very inspirational. I could never get it completely verified. Is when he was eight years old, he and a boy about his age were were walking along a road, and the other boy fell into a ditch and broke his leg. And a very you know someone stopped in a pickup truck to help them help him and took him to the hospital. And the story is, my dad was so inspired by the work of the surgeon who repaired his friend's leg that he was determined at that point to pursue a career as a physician, which still seems impossible because there were no role models, there was no path for someone to pursue medicine, let alone surgery. He, you know, went to schools that were not really at the level that one would expect to be prepared to enter medicine as a career. So it took him longer to earn extra degrees and to navigate around segregation at that time, and yet he persisted, and he never let those barriers really get make him feel so negative and jaded that he lost sight of his dream. I tell in the middle of the book a really interesting story where he met. The president of the University of Arkansas. Now that was William Fulbright, who became Senator Fulbright after his tenure as president of the University of Arkansas. And my dad befriended him and said, "I'd like to go to your medical school, which again was almost a fanciful idea. Segregation was still in place. He would ultimately be in the second class of African Americans to go to the University of Arkansas, but he befriended Senator Fulbright, who saw his potential and and and really behind the scenes helped open doors for him. That's something that I write about, and really was, I think, part of an interesting story about you should never not be willing to look for help and look for others who can help you achieve your dreams. And then he just had this really amazing career. It was cut very short in the mid '70s, but he participated in a field that was brand new. Surgery was brand. I mean, transplantation was brand new in the late 50s, early 60s, and he really had no exposure to it. And yet, he was he studied immunology as a and chemistry as a undergraduate and earning a master's degree, and was just excited about the field of surgery, and just because of his persistence and his his just incredible desire, had doors open. He pushed and kicked doors open, and really, that's the history leading to this remarkable career advancing the field of transplantation in lots of different ways. Robert Plank 6:44 Oh yeah, I can only imagine how many lives that's changed, right? How many people that that he saved with with all these transplantations, and it just goes to show you, you never know who you're inspiring, right? Like that the the friend that fell on the ditch, and then they went to have the surgeon. I mean, just just that. And for that surgeon, it was just another day. And then there, your dad was getting inspired. And did your dad inspire you yourself to become a doctor? Dr. David Kountz 7:11 Oh, absolutely. Really, back to your first point. At the time he he stopped operating, unfortunately, got sick and passed away. He had done over 500 kidney transplants, he had done the most that had been recorded that anyone can can think occurred at that point. So he was very very experienced as a surgeon, and he obviously, like most doctors and lots of people, worked very long hours, but he always came home optimistic and enthusiastic, and my interest in pursuing medicine was as much around. I saw him have this great joy in his job, and at some at some level, it didn't matter what his job was. He brought home so much enthusiasm and optimism that that's really what inspired me. Robert Plank 8:02 Very nice, that's a wonderful message. That yeah, with that we only have one life, right? And it's important to be happy and make a difference, and to be enthusiastic, so that others see that and that we're a positive rival force for other for others because it's so just built-in default to to be a mean person, it's it's like an easy shortcut, and then they're mean to someone else, and we want to go the other way, right? You want to help out other people, and so I just I love this story because, like you said a few times, they're like it would be easy to give up and say there's no template, there's no path, no one else has walked on this trail before me, but it seems like your dad-he founds the other friends along the way, right? Like Senator Fulbright, and so you can you can find like your allies and your role models, and they don't have to have taken the exact path that you want to take to make it work. Dr. David Kountz 8:55 Yeah, you said it perfectly. It was, I think he surprised so many people because here's this African, African American in medicine, in surgery, in transplant surgery, opening doors and saving lives. And I think it really came down to he was very, very much a people person, and that's sometimes the stereotype of a surgeon is that there are these, you know, they don't have that personality. But it was so much between him and his patient. I mean, try to imagine back 50 years ago, going to a patient or their family and saying, "I'm going to try this experimental technique that has not yet worked consistently well. I'm going to take an organ out of another person and put it in your daughter, or your or your mother, and you have to trust me that it's the best thing that we can do to try to help them save their lives. I mean, he had these these must have been incredible conversations. We take it for granted today. We watch a kidney transplant on discovery TV, but back then it was like landing on the moon, Robert Plank 10:07 Right, and now we transplant all kinds of things, right? We do heart transplants and so much more, and so I can only imagine how scary that could have been for everyone involved, right? This was pioneering, and so there were just so many like difficulties along the way, and in the this book is 446 pages. So, is there a particular like like a high point, like a particular chapter or story in this this crazy journey that you think is worth unpacking? Dr. David Kountz 10:35 Yes, I'd love to tell you one. So, in 1976, we had moved a few years earlier from the West Coast to the East Coast, and a big part of his focus at that point in his career was getting the word out to the public about the importance of organ transplantation. And he kept thinking, "How can I educate the public? I can operate on one patient at a time. I can give a medical lecture somewhere, and he said maybe if I can do a transplant on on television live a live you know transplant on television. So he approached the Today Show, and the they arranged for him to be filmed during segments of the Today Show doing a kidney transplant. I remember that was probably the only day of my high school career that I stayed home from school with my brother and my sister, and we were so nervous because the day finally came when the kidney was available at the right time, and the TV station could send the cameras into the operating room, and it seemed such a risk because God forbid something happened, this whole idea of publicizing the importance of transplant would fall apart, and yet he was very calm, and again he was so experienced and and gave confidence to his team that this is going to be wonderful to make people aware of how we can do kidney transplants, and it's not like landing on the moon. It's a real, it's a medical procedure that will become more and more common, and will get more people to sign up to be become organ donors. So all that morning between the various segments of the Today Show, they would cut back to the operating room, and he'd be narrating what he was doing to perform this transplant, which fortunately turned out very, very well. And after that show aired, 20,000 people within a few weeks signed up to become organ donors. Robert Plank 12:37 Whoa, amazing! And it's like a Elvis gets all the credit, doesn't he? Like, didn't Elvis get like the the live vaccine? And that was just over in a few seconds. And here was your dad practicing a real skill. And I'm getting like there's something to be said about the the repetition and the like knowing like knowing something so well you could just do it on a moment's notice, right? Like Bruce Lee says, "Well, I don't fear the person that's performed 10,000 kicks. I fear the person that has performed like the one kick 10,000 times, and so that's something to be said. That your dad he knew this so well that doing it on live TV was just like okay, he he can do it because he's he you know he's got the muscle memory. He's seen all the ways that it can go right and wrong, so he can just have this all figured. And it seems like there's also something to be said about the need for the socialization and all the various aspects, right? Like you said, like communicating with patients or being maybe braggadocious is not the right word, but doing the publicity and getting the word out about what you do if people learning about it will really have a positive effect. Dr. David Kountz 13:45 Yeah, you're absolutely right. He had he understood he needed to demystify it. Even if a patient went to their local doctor, their local family doctor in those days and said, "What do you think about my my getting a kidney transplant? That local doctor may have even said, "That's still experimental. That's crazy. You know who who knows. So he understood the importance of making it a more very real world. I think he actually asked them to interview the patient as well. He got permission and consent to do that. So it became a very real kind of event, and he didn't consider it as you said that especially groundbreaking. Although it, of course, was groundbreaking. I think if he were on this call with the two of us, he would also say it's about a team. It wasn't just me. It was the fact that I had worked with those nurses so many times they knew what to do when. It was because I had the other surgeons in the room, and they knew what to do when. And he was very, very much understood that anywhere he would go and try to start a new transplant program, you could educate one very smart person who's the surgeon, but you also. To educate that entire team, and we still take that approach in medicine today. You generally want to go someplace where where that doctor or that hospital does a certain procedure all the time. So that's back to your point about repetition, and we tend to think about let's make sure that the team is ready, not just that one surgeon, because you can have one surgeon, but if you got nurses and other doctors in the room and they haven't ever done it with him or her, it could not have a very good outcome. Robert Plank 15:28 Of course. So on-the-job training and learning, and you hear all the time about medical people being up to date with the latest journals and just you know knowing what's possible and never stopping learning, right? You might have stopped our schooling, but you always have to get those refreshers just to stay at the top of your game and make sure that your team supports you as well. And so you're following in your dad's footsteps. You're an MD as well. And was there any issues with like they say about like living in in your your dad's shadow, or something that like that, right? He was such a great man. Did you struggle with that, or have you had your your own unique achievements, or what was that journey like for you? Dr. David Kountz 16:08 That's a really great question. So, although I interest, I was interested in in what he did, I was not interested in surgery. So the first thing that I kind of quickly eliminated was the thought that I'd follow him as a surgeon, I was interested in medicine as a scientific, you know, a profession where I would dedicate my life. But I wasn't interested in surgery. I did not want to go to the medical school where he was in practice. I thought that that would be too big a shadow to try to overcome. So I intentionally, you know, chose a medical school that is not somewhere where he had a major presence or influence necessarily. So I loved what he did. I was inspired by what he did, but I did think about those issues when I was considering attending medical school to try to create and carve out my own identity. And what I've done is, I'm an internal medicine doctor. I take care of high blood pressure and back pain and diabetes and all of those types of issues. And I've pursued medical education and research. And I've been very fortunate. I've loved the career that I've had, but and he truly did inspire that. Robert Plank 17:22 Yes, and I can see on your wall, right? All those various accomplishments you've done so much, and you've also forged your own path, so we got the best of both worlds, right? What's the point in of just being a carbon copy or a repeat of what someone else has done, whether they're related to you or not, right? You might have that that hero or that inspiring figure, and why would you want to copy what they've done? You want to, you know, have have your own success and achievements. And so we've been speaking so far with Dr. David Kountz, M.D. That's K O U N T Z, about his father Samuel L. Kountz, M.D. in this book, A Life of Impact, and it presents this vivid account of a man whose legacy continues to shape modern medicine. It's a story of ambition forged through adversity, science, compassion, and of a life devoted to expanding the limits of what is possible. And we've been just discussing all these ways to live a good life for yourself and for others, but in these final minutes of our conversation, Doctor David, do you think there might be a missing question about all this that I should be asking you? I just don't know to ask you. Dr. David Kountz 18:31 I think missing question would be, okay, so he had this technical skill to perform surgery and operate on blood vessels and all sorts of things. So, were there other big societal issues he had to grapple with as he and others advanced the field of transplantation? So, I would say to that question, the answer is yes. And we have to think about what it was like to overcome the hesitancy and fear of something that was so new, and and I talked a little bit about this a few minutes ago. But even to his his peers, other doctors, this was still very new and very experimental. And I think he he had a really measured perspective and said, not everyone is going to come on board with something like transplantation. Again, here in 2026, we take it almost for granted. And as you said, lots of different organs are transplanted. But back in the early and mid 1960s, it was a very different world. And I remember sitting with our family in the car. We would drive to maybe a surgical meeting that he would be attending. It would be a family trip. He didn't want to always leave us, and so why don't you guys come in the car and I'll go give my lecture and and mom can take you to the park and then we'll we'll all go back home together. And I remember that many of his challenging conversations. Where it's not about trying to convince them of how to do this surgery, it would be how this was truly advancing the field of medicine, how it was going to become one day much more routine, how in the future the big issue is going to be more organs. That's that's going to be the future challenge. So he he was able to I think see the future and articulate it to a lot of skeptical people, not just the general public, but his his colleagues. And I think if he were to look down today in 2026, he would say things are not necessarily perfect, but transplantation has really advanced, and that's what I've always wanted. He didn't want to see young people his age, 20s, 30s, 40s, dying of of this of kidney disease when they could receive a transplant and live a normal lifespan, and that happens today. Robert Plank 20:58 Right, so there's something to be said about good salesmanship, for lack of a better term. That some people people can be stubborn or resistant to new ideas, and we have to educate them. and And sometimes instead of just jumping into the step by step how to procedures, there's that that bigger picture, right? And even just you know what will this bring in the future, and why is this important? And what kind of hang-ups, rejections, objections someone might have about some new scary idea? And it's just scary because it hasn't been done before and it has risk. But if it saves lives, then that's something that we need to get the the word out, no matter what it is, right? No matter what future medical innovation we have if we live to the year 200 if we can replace our brains or our our lungs grow new tissues you know who knows what's possible in the future and so it's just a a great message and so much that your dad has overcome and you mention it in this book a life of impact and it's more than a clinical biography, it examines the human dimensions of this journey, the emotional, ethical challenges of early transplantations, the realities of discrimination in medical institutions, the burden of responsibility carried by those who pioneer life-saving procedures. And this book, the website is DavidKountzmd.com. That last name is spelled K-O-U-N-T-Z. So DavidKountzmd.com, and you can find out all about. There's all sorts of pictures, blog posts, and be educated about the book. And so that way you know what you're getting yourself into. And then the book you can also find it on Amazon. It's a life of impact, a biography of Samuel L. Kountz, M.D. a story of resilience from rural Arkansas in the segregated South to worldwide recognition as a pioneering transplant surgeon. So near the end of this here, Mr. David, do you have anything resembling a sort of soundbite? If someone's been been really excited about this book, and we want to do one last 30/62 push to go get it, any thoughts? Dr. David Kountz 23:09 You know, back in 1952, when when my dad was 22, and he had seemingly all of these obstacles around him to pursue this dream. I'm not gonna. I'm gonna paraphrase that he said at that point. You know, whether it was segregation or racism or this or that, I am. I'm not gonna let anything get in my way to achieve my goal, and that's that's been a nice north star for me. And I think for all of us, we can all look to something that we might say hindered us from achieving our dream, but his lesson to me, and the lesson I want to share with you and your audiences, you just have to push that aside and keep focused on achieving your goal. Robert Plank 24:00 Very inspiring. Ask those proper questions and be focused on that goal, and don't let those things stop you. Why is this not a movie yet, or why are you not pursuing making this into something? Dr. David Kountz 24:10 Well, it, it might, it, it might, I've you know it's it's only been available for a few months, and I'm I'm having wonderful opportunities to speak with people like yourself, so we'll see. I that that may be in its future, who knows? Robert Plank 24:25 And then I can say I knew you in right when they made the Hollywood big budget $300 million picture. I can say I knew you in. It was just in book form. Dr. David Kountz 24:33 There you go. Robert Plank 24:35 I wonder Dr. David Kountz 24:36 Maybe one I'll just write it. I am an audio book will be available within the next few weeks, so it's the books available now on hardcover, softcover, and we'll announce on the book's website that it'll be available in audiobook in just a few weeks. Robert Plank 24:51 Very nice, so we're one step closer, right? We'll have the book and then audiobook. Maybe someday it'll be a stage play, and then that can catch on and the massive nationwide Hollywood Picture. So the book is "A Life of Impact," a biography of Samuel L. Kountz, M.D. You can find about it at DavidKountzmd.com. And you've just spent so much very wise knowledge to us so far, Doctor David. As we are about to wrap up here, do you have anything as far as a fun or interesting quote or lesson that has served you? Dr. David Kountz 25:25 Well, I take my work seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. So it would have been disrespectful to wear my my funny suit today, but I because this is more somewhat work and and an enjoyable experience and conversation. But that's been a lesson I've learned. I work with a lot of students. I work with a lot of patients who have natural anxiety when they come into healthcare, and of course, I'm very serious and focused about the work that I do, the teaching I do. But I always try to insert a degree of levity to relax the situation. Robert Plank 26:00 I love that, that is so cool. So be serious about the work, but not serious about yourself. That's very great, very wonderful. And to find out about Samuel L. Kountz, who helped change kidney transplantation forever, his story, which is shaped by poverty and racial injustice, is one that medicine has waited too long to tell. Find out about it at DavidKountzmd.com. There's a big yellow button, you can click Buy Now and get this book, A Life of Impact, and find out all about this amazing historical man, David S. Kountz, M.D. and his father as well, Samuel L. Kountz, M.D. What a legacy! What a fun story! And thank you, Dr. David, for showing up, stopping by, and helping us out today. Dr. David Kountz 26:44 My pleasure, thanks for a great interview. I enjoyed it so much.