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Robert Plank: Marketer of the
Day episode 710 website redesign

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and rebranding, build trust
using hero's journey, self

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transformation and change the
world. With Chris Yoko,

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yep. Hey everyone, and welcome
back to the marketer of the day

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podcast. And I have a quick
question for you, does your

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website really matter? Does it
get across the message that you

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want to get across? Does it
adhere to all those somewhat

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boring but important legalese
and compliance issues and most

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importantly, does your website
and your business have a

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purpose? Are you serving some
kind of a great or goodwill,

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whether you have or you haven't,
thought about any of those

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things. We have an expert here
with us on the show. That is

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Chris Yoko from y o, K, O, C
o.com, that's yococo.com and

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we're gonna hear all about the
things that you can and should

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and hopefully will soon be doing
to your website. So Chris, glad

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to be talking to you. Yeah,
likewise. Thank you for having

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me. Glad to have you. And so, I
mean, what has kind of been your

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focus, your passion these last
12 months or so? And I mean,

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what sorts of things do you
think we need to know these

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days?

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Chris Yoko: I mean, so the big
one as it pertains to the intro

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you just shared, is being able
to take this thing that I think

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a lot of organizations take for
granted. Oh, we got to make sure

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we have a website and get it up
there, and then they kind of

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move on to the next thing, but
your web presence is the single

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biggest lever you have in terms
of being able to communicate

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with the world. And when you use
it correctly, you can really

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affect major change. And so
being able to help organizations

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understand how to go through
that process. And we've really

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been leaning into we started
using it in 2014 but continuing

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to lean into Joseph Campbell's
kind of a hero's journey as a

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roadmap for how organizations
use their website and their web

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presence correctly to really
affect the world as a whole and

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build a better

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Robert Plank: world. So when you
say Joseph Campbell's hero's

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journey, I've heard about this,
how it's like the Star Wars

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template, right? Of how there's
like the underdog and there's

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the inciting incident, and
there's, like, an initial

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failure and then another failure
in the big succession kind of

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thing. But when how this
pertains to these businesses and

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these websites, what does this
hero's journey mean? Exactly,

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Chris Yoko: yeah, so it's, I'm
glad you knew what it was,

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because we run into a lot of
people that have no idea what it

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is, some people that have a
vague recollection from, you

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know, Junior High literary
classes, but it's exactly what

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you mentioned. It's kind of that
same template. Every hero goes

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through these 12 steps, and the
way that it starts, and the way

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that we saw this correlation
with the organizations we work

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with is a lot of times you're
going through a rebranding or a

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website redesign process, you're
changing who you are and how you

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project and identify yourself to
the world. We partnered with a

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research group back in 2015 I
think it was, and saw that more

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people trust what you say on
your website whenever a person

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has made a referral to you than
any other platform, including

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third party review sites, which
was a bit of an eye opener for

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us. So when you go through this
process of self transformation,

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first, which is what the hero's
journey showcases you kind of

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jump into the realm of the
unknown. You try to solve a

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problem that you're not sure how
to solve. You come through it.

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First, you change yourself, and
by changing the way you project

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who you are to the world. People
done right? Obviously, people

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start to change the way that
they behave towards you. They

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realize, Oh, these people are
leaders in this space, or, Oh,

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they can help us do X, Y and Z,
or they're affecting this level

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of change that begins to be an
active change that you see

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within your community. And
depending on the type of

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organization you are, when you
follow that through all the way

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to its kind of natural course of
completion, by making these

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changes in your community,
you're then having a deeper

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ripple effect across the world
as a whole. And so you get a

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chance to kind of go through
this entire process and

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understand that it starts with
self transformation, but

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ultimately ends with a major
change in impact and the way

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that you kind of work your
difference in the world.

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Robert Plank: And to kind of
help us understand your magic,

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your secret sauce, can you kind
of tell us, like maybe what a

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website or business you've dealt
with looked like, or did or said

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before you came across and
applied some of this, and then

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what sort of things you changed,
and what was the end result?

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Chris Yoko: Yeah, absolutely. So
the biggest one we see,

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especially for small to mid
sized businesses, is people say,

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oh, you know what it's it's
there. It's a brochure. We just

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need to have it there, and we
want to update it so we don't

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look at a date, right? And so
we'll go through, we'll make

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some updates, but we'll go
through a process we're really

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kind of understanding how the
website should be supporting the

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organization itself, be it a
business, a nonprofit, an

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association, whatever the case
might be. And one of the biggest

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pieces of feedback we see
afterwards is usually within

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like, 30 to 90 days this CEO
COO, whatever, will end up being

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like, oh, you know what? We get
a lot more word of mouth

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referrals now than we used to.
That was an interesting, you

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know, side effect of us
redesigning the website, and the

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good news we had to share with
them there is like, hey, you've

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always been getting good word of
mouth referrals. The bad news

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is, whenever you had the. Old
site. People are looking at the

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site before they decided to call
you, and then they just decided

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not to call you. So one of the
real easy things you can do with

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an organization is kind of help
increase the effect that you

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have with the customers,
clients, patients, members you

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serve already, because chances
are, if you're doing a good job

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with them, they are talking to
people that might be a good

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prospective fit with you more
than you might be talking to

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other folks and refer people in
and if then you don't have a

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good website, or a website
that's conducive with what that

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you know referral source ended
up sharing, you're gonna miss

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out because it doesn't jive
with, oh, they said this was a

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really great like modern
organization, and here they've

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got this website from 1998 and
this must not be the right

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place. I'm gonna bow out. And
that's one of the really easy

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things you can do to kind of
really begin to affect results.

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And then obviously, as things
kind of steamroll. From there,

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you get to work with more and
more people. You get to

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introduce, maybe other members
of your community, or, depending

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on how you work, have deeper,
more meaningful relationships

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with those people. And that, you
know, positive impact ripples

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outward.

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Robert Plank: Super cool. And I
mean, you make a lot of

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interesting points here,
especially that a few minutes

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ago, we were talking about how
people might see things on third

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party review sites, but they
trust what's on your website

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more, because who knows if some
random person said this, or if

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that comment was from years ago,
and yeah. And so, by and these,

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the other interesting point you
make here is how, like, there

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might be a bottleneck on the
website, right? Like how you

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said you had that client where
the they weren't getting word of

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mouth because people were being
lost at the website, and as soon

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as the website was okay, then
that the water would flow

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through the pipe, so to speak.
And it seems like, I'm sure you

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come across the kind of
resistance where people say,

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well, where's my ROI? Where's my
return on investment? And it's

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like, well, if you make, if you
get all the your eyes dotted and

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your T's crossed, so to speak,
then that that ROI that you are

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missing out on will increase.
But it's like, hard to to to see

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it missing when it's when it's
not there, and it's hard to see

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the increase other than, well, I
did a few more of these things

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that I should be doing right and
now I'm getting some results

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here. And so as far as like
specific things that you're

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seeing these these websites
doing, like you said that

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sometimes they look at a date
they haven't been updated in the

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year. So what sorts of just I
don't like, common things do you

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see again and again on these
websites that people should be

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correcting these days.

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Chris Yoko: I mean, so there's
the really obvious ones, where,

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like you said, it looks at a
date or it doesn't work on

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phones and stuff like that. But
more often than not, the

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indicators that the website
isn't doing what it needs to do

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is if it does feel like it's
just an afterthought, if you're

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not getting a steady influx of
whether it's leads or interested

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parties or partnerships or
whatever, an influx of

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communication and traffic
through your website. If it's

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not, if you don't know how it
actually supports the business,

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that's a big sign that it's not
being used effectively. And you

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should be taking a look at
something if it used to be. You

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know, we run into a lot of
organizations where, hey,

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whenever we redid our website
five years ago, six years ago,

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two years ago, it was generating
a lot of results. It was helping

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our sales team. We were getting,
you know, a lot of traffic, and

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now that seems to have dried up.
That's often a sign, you know,

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that something's going wrong.
And of course, if it's just

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been, you know, neglected or
been shifted into hand after

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hand after hand, and it's always
been an afterthought, there's a

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chance that there's a really
good opportunity for that to be

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a breakthrough component of the
business, because it is the

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thing that more people are going
to see than just about any other

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aspect of your business. You
know, more people are going to

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see the website then become a
customer, become a member,

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become a patient or referral
source, whatever the case might

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be.

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Robert Plank: And you made, you
made this kind of interesting

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point a few times here about how
even though you might have

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redone the website a couple of
years ago, things are always

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changing, right? Like, the trend
might go more into like the

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phones and the quick loading,
but then next thing, you know,

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like, then phones get huge, or,
like, tablets come out, and then

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it's all about the retina
graphics. And so things change.

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And it's like, it's almost like,
as soon as you're you're happy

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with the website, then you need
to refresh. And that's been kind

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of a hard lesson for me to keep
in mind that, like, you know,

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every couple of years, I have to
go back and revisit and just

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look at, you know, what's
working and what's not working

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and and keep in mind, like,
similar websites, or kind of

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remember like that, that sort of
swipe file, so to speak, and

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remember, like, what I didn't
like about people's websites, or

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this person had a pop up, and I
have to remember that, or this

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person had a quiz. So with all
these things that could be done,

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how do you make sense of all of
it? Is it a matter of like you,

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you kind of have a feel for what
the supposed template is for

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different industries, or is
about like, what your client is

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looking for, like, how do you
just make sense of all the

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possibilities and do a handful
of things that this website

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needs to do? Yeah, so

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Chris Yoko: it is, like you
said, it's an it's an ongoing

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arms race, right? Like,
everyone's kind of constantly

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better in their web presence.
And while technologies become

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more fluid, that cycle of, okay,
we're going to redesign it and

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wait a few years and redesign it
doesn't make as much sense

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anymore. You know, content
management systems, just like

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apps are being updated regularly
on an ongoing basis. And you

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should. Really do the same with
your web presence, but for a lot

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of organizations, it comes to
what you mentioned, which is, if

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they're not sure what they're
getting out of it, they're not

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measuring things appropriately,
then they don't really know what

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to do. So whenever it comes to
the way that we work, usually,

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if we are working with an
organization that they haven't

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tracked any metrics, they don't
really know what is working,

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what isn't working, you can
follow some best practices to

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get things started. And one of
those best practices is to start

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tracking that stuff. And so one
of the things that we do for a

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lot of our clients is we call it
a full Funnel Report. Basically

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it starts at the top. What are
our social and search

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impressions and views look like?
How does that percolate into

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traffic, into the website? Does
that traffic engage with us?

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Does it convert at any level? If
it does convert, what do those

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become marketing qualified
leads, or, depending on how a

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client classifies them, whatever
they title them, how does that

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percolate and convert into sales
qualified leads? How do they go

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through the sales process and
then ultimately, what people

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have purchased become members,
engaged partners, whatever the

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case might be. And then what was
the return on investment of

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that? Once you know from top to
bottom what those numbers look

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like, it becomes a lot easier to
decide what it makes sense to do

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moving forward, right? Because
now you know, okay, we like our

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conversion numbers across the
board, so we think we should

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drive more traffic. So let's
make some of the changes. Let's

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create some new content that's
going to drive some new traffic

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in. Let's do a couple of things
around search engine

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optimization that are going to
help us optimize and deliver

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more traffic to the top of that
funnel, because we feel really

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good about the way it percolates
through all the way to the

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bottom. And if we get another,
you know, 10,000 visitors a

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month, we know that's going to
be another 100 customers,

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whatever the case might be. Or
if you're not happy with the

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conversion rate at any given
point, you begin to think about

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what you do there. Is it our
content? Do we need to AB test

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and maybe do some things that
are going to make it more

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engaging, more likely to convert
once people have converted, you

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know, are they percolating
through from marketing into

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sales qualified? How do we kind
of massage that so being able to

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kind of put some best practices
in place first, follow that

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funnel and make sure you're
benchmarking your numbers from

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the top to the bottom, and you
can kind of see some

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correlation. A word of warning,
a lot of people want to start

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benchmarking and then
immediately get into

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attribution, be like, Well, that
wasn't a web lead that came from

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this guy that I know. And then
you start to fracture

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everything. If you're not
tracking anything right now,

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just start tracking everything
across the whole business.

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Usually, people are going to
touch your web presence, unless

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you're in a really specific
niche in terms of your industry,

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they're going to touch your
website. They're going to talk

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to your salespeople, or your
team or whatever. It's going to

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be pretty fluid. So track
everything across the board,

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perfect that model, and then you
can start to modify and change

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things. But that's really kind
of the basics. It's nothing too

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crazy,

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Robert Plank: cool. And I'm kind
of getting a feel for like, the

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kind of science and the art
blend, right? It's like, you do

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the tracking, you get the data,
and then based on that. You you

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make some educated guesses, you
make some judgments, and then

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you say, Well, based on that,
then maybe we'll do something

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like this with the the blog
post, or we'll change these

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things here. And so that way you
kind of, you aren't missing out

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on anything, right? You kind of
have the the heat map side of

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things, so to speak, or track
and check in the clicks. But

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then there's also the kind of,
the outside the box thing. So

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that way you're not just too
much one or the other

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Chris Yoko: Absolutely. And it's
that's always like the tricky

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bit, because people will read
things online and be like, Oh,

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well, this works for this other
organization. So why don't we

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just do exactly what they did?
And it's, you're a different

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brand, you have a different
relationship, a different tone

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of voice. And so there is that
blend of art and science, and

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how do you do the things that
are right and consistent and

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congruent with who you are?
Because a lot of times again, if

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you you know, just go through
and copy, or you don't have

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something that's authentically
you, by the time they get away

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from the web copy, which is
something that they really

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liked, because they raised their
hand and said, We want to talk

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further. They talk to somebody
who's now speaking a totally

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different language, and they
begin to drop off. It's really

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got to be authentically you. And
that's where a lot of the art

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comes and then just the science
is the measurement and determine

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what steps make sense to take

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Robert Plank: next. So and so
we're talking a lot here about

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things like AB testing, or, you
know, making changes and seeing

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what the client thinks and then
changing back. So what's sort of

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the the time frame on some of
these things? I guess it is. It

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ongoing? Is it six months? Like,
how long does it take to get

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some of these websites dialed
in? It really depends

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Chris Yoko: on the organization.
I mean, we have some

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organizations we work with that.
They just want to kind of

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annually look at the numbers,
make sure they're on the right

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path, put a couple of key
strategic, you know,

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deliverables in place throughout
the year, and then just kind of

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run with it. And then we've got
other clients where every two

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weeks, we're driving enough
traffic that it makes sense to

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kind of iterate and continuously
be modifying things on an

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ongoing basis. So there's not a
cadence that's right for every

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organization. If you're a, you
know, single or person or a

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partner or a small group of
people, you don't have the time,

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nor is it going to be a worthy
return on your time to be

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constantly tweaking everything
all the time you know, you kind

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of have to roll it in and make
sure that you've also got enough

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traffic and data that it makes
sense to react, so you have to

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give yourself time to get to
that kind of statistical level

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of significance.

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Robert Plank: Well, great. And
so as far as like some of these

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organizations you help, some of
these websites that your agency

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has worked on, is there any that
stands out, like, really, really

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brightly for you? As far as like
a website that you like, really.

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Proud of, or they just came
together really well.

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Chris Yoko: Oh, there's a
there's a lot of this in terms

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of alignment. So we work a lot
with, we aim to work exclusively

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with organizations that have a
passion or purpose beyond just

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profit. So we do work with a lot
of commercial organizations, but

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they tend to be ones that are
trying to build a better world.

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And we also do work with a lot
of you know, nonprofits,

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healthcare, associations. I
think one of the ones in recent

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memory that is a favorite of
mine is we did some work for the

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Andes Amazon Fund, which, you
know, in light of all of the

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news around the Amazon and it
being, you know, burnt and

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forested, was really excited to
be able to help support those

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guys and being able to help
defend and protect and conserve

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the Amazon. So that's, that's
one that I really like. And, I

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mean, it's such a beautiful
landscape, and we got a chance

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to kind of show some of that
through the digital component

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and help them, you know, raise
some additional funds to help

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protect something like a couple
100 million additional hecticers

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of Amazon rainforest. So that's
huge,

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Robert Plank: nice. And you
always hear about, like, those,

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those kind of amazing things.
People are doing these things

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with, like the, you know, the
drones that plant a million

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trees in one day and just like
crazy stuff like that. And so, I

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mean, would you recommend that,
like any business out there, if

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they don't have one of these,
these causes they're supporting

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and talking about other
websites, should everyone maybe

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be start thinking about going
down this road,

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Chris Yoko: I think so. I think
that there's a big difference

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between the people that do it as
like a marketing thing, and the

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people that are really,
authentically concerned and

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aligned with whatever mission it
is they're following through

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with. If you've a big thing that
we help a lot of organizations

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do is they kind of aspire to
make some change, but they don't

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necessarily know what that
should be. So, for example, we

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do some work with a organization
called the United motor coach

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Association. And it's, you know,
it's the group that represents

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all the people that own motor
coaches, busses that you might

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rent or reserve for, you know, a
party or a field trip, or

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whatever the case might be. And
off the top, you know, it

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doesn't sound like there's
anything really cause oriented

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about that, but a well and
efficiently used motor coach is

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going to be more effective than
a car, even if you only have it

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20% loaded. And they're doing a
lot in terms of, you know, being

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able to go with emission free
vehicles. And the more busses

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move to that, you not only get
the advantage of moving a lot of

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people in a smaller vehicle and
a smaller footprint, but maybe

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racing the footprint altogether.
So one of the things we did with

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them was agree to do work with
them in exchange for them adding

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to their annual conference a
speaker series on the

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environmental impact of the
industry and how to minimize it,

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as well as add to their bylaws a
goal to minimize their negative

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environmental impact and
eventually get the industry to

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go carbon free. So there's a lot
of opportunities. Even if you

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feel like you're an organization
that there's nothing that

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screams to you about, hey,
here's how we can support or

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better the world. There's a lot
of opportunities. But it makes

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sense to think about the stuff
that really resonates with you,

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and it's something you'd
authentically want to be behind,

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because a lot of people do the,
you know, the buy one, give one

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or the other. You know, the
Tom's clones, and then, like,

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the Warby Parker clones and all
that stuff. And I feel like it's

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got to go deeper than that,

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Robert Plank: okay, yeah. And
it's like, it seems like the, as

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you kind of describe that
thought process there with that,

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the bus company, like, sometimes
it takes a while to think that

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through, right? It's like, okay,
like, Absolutely. What are we,

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like, we're providing the
service, or we're doing this

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thing, and the negatives might
be that to like the environment,

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and how do we offset that? And
it might take a while to kind of

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figure out what that end result
would be,

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Chris Yoko: yeah, for sure. I
mean, it takes time. It's not if

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some clients come in and they
know, like, here's what we do,

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and here's how we can build a
better world, and we want you

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guys to help us do it. But a lot
of them come to us like, Hey,

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we've got some ideas, and we
know that the way we portray the

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causes that we represent, the
alignment we have online, is

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going to be a huge part of how
people respond to and how we

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affect the world. But basically,
they want to be able to get to a

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place where they figure out what
that is. And so in a lot of

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cases, we're working with
clients to kind of help

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determine what that mission
looks like, and how they

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articulate it as a key component
of their brand and a key

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component of kind of who they
are and what their employees

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really care about. And

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Robert Plank: I imagine that. I
mean, you've seen this done

397
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again and again, and you it's
always helps to get that person

398
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or the entity on the outside
looking in. And some of these

399
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people might be kind of strapped
in their own bubble and only be

400
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800
looking at what their industry
doing is doing, or what their

401
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,040
competitors are doing. So I
imagine that by having you and

402
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,380
your agency take a look, they
can kind of think outside the

403
00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:33,200
box, and they can, like, come up
with all kinds of different

404
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,100
solutions, not just in the the
charity or the the cost thing

405
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we've been talking about here,
but also just in in website

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00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,100
redesigns, right? Like, it
always helps to have that fresh

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00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:42,940
perspective.

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00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,280
Chris Yoko: Absolutely, it's,
you know, it's, we always call

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it puzzle vision. So, you know,
you're working on a puzzle and

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00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:50,500
you're just staring at a piece,
and somebody walks up from the

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couch or something, it's like,
oh, there it is. And the fresh

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00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,420
perspective goes a long way in
helping an organization figure

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00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:58,000
out at least what their options
are, right? So, and that's, I

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think, part of the advantage of
us working with a. Lot of

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different industries. You know,
we work with startups and

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technology platforms and SaaS
organizations, and they tend to

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00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,520
be on kind of the cutting edge
of technology. And then we can

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00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,460
borrow some of that information
and apply it where appropriate

419
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to some of our clients that
might be on the other end of the

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00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:15,960
bell curve in terms of
technology adoption, and help

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00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,660
them kind of leapfrog and really
make progress. So not only is

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it, like you said, the advantage
of being able to take a look at

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things differently from a
mission or a cost per mission or

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a cause perspective, but just
from a technology and marketing

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perspective in general. And how
do you make sure everything's

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Robert Plank: coming back to the
result? Yeah, and then the

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result of that would be that
that business that you're

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helping, they do something
that's unique, and it's not

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00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:39,020
really unique, it's just
repurposed from some other

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00:20:39,020 --> 00:20:42,580
industry, but no one in that
industry is doing it. So in a

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00:20:42,580 --> 00:20:45,220
way, I mean, it's a unique and
it's not unique, right? Exactly,

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it's unique

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Chris Yoko: to them. Yeah, yeah.
And so used car, right?

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Robert Plank: There you go.
Yeah, again. So if these,

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someone's listening to our
conversation today and they say,

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you know that these are some
really great ideas, I like

437
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:02,340
having options. I want to start
a conversation with Chris and

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00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:05,100
his team and see what they're
all about, but I'm not sure if

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00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:07,920
I'm a right fit or I'm not sure
what Chris and his team can do

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00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,320
for me. Can you tell us what we
need to know here, as far as,

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00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,740
like, what's the website? Where
do people go? Have they know if

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00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:16,920
they're the right fit and what
are the actions to be taken

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00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,600
here? Yeah, for sure. So I mean,
if

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00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,780
Chris Yoko: you're interested in
chatting with us, we're at Yoko

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00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:26,600
co.com so that's why oko co.com
if you're not immediately either

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00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,940
attracted or repelled based on
the language we use on the

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00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:31,280
website, that'll probably give
you a good idea if you're a fit.

448
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,320
But we also have an assessment
there for the types of

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00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,480
organizations that we like to
work with. And if you're

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00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,760
interested in talking a little
bit further, just use the

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00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,340
contact form there. Drop us a
line, and we'd be interested to

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00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:42,620
talk to you and talk about what
kind of change we can make

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00:21:42,620 --> 00:21:44,320
together. Change we can make
together. Super

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00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,620
Robert Plank: cool. So if you
are ready to make that change or

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00:21:47,620 --> 00:21:51,760
redo things with your business,
on your website, check out y, O,

456
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,860
K, O, C, o.com, that's
yococo.com go there. Check out

457
00:21:56,860 --> 00:21:59,200
the language, like Chris said,
see if it attracts or repels

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00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,460
you. Take that assessment. Click
the contact button and we will

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00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:07,320
see you there over@yoko.com and
thanks Chris for taking the time

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00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,660
and teaching, teaching us lots
of cool things. Yeah, thanks

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00:22:09,660 --> 00:22:10,860
Chris Yoko: for having me.
Robert pleasure,

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00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,340
Robert Plank: subscribe to us
right now, while it's still

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00:22:17,340 --> 00:22:19,920
fresh on your mind at marketer
of the day.com/itunes