1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:04,080 Robert Plank: Marketer of the Day episode 713, partnerships, 2 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:08,580 relationships, collaboration, create, grow and monetize your 3 00:00:08,580 --> 00:00:16,020 podcast with Benjamin Shapiro. Hey, everyone, and welcome back 4 00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:18,900 to the marketer of the day podcast. We are here with 5 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:23,060 Benjamin Shapiro, a marketing and podcast growth expert. His 6 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:28,400 website is Ben J shampf.com and he is a brand development and a 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,480 marketing strategy consultant. And if you are interested at all 8 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:35,000 in growing your business, growing your podcast, which you 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,180 should be, brand development, marketing strategy, know about 10 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:41,500 what works for the startups and with podcasting, including how 11 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:43,840 to monetize your audience, how to find and engage your 12 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,360 audience, then you are here in the right place. We are talking 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,300 with Mr. Benjamin Shapiro, so Hey, Ben, how are things these 14 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:49,720 days? 15 00:00:49,900 --> 00:00:51,880 Benjamin Shapiro: I'm great. I'm great. Thanks for having me on 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:52,420 the show, Robert. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,620 Robert Plank: I am super glad to have you. And so as far as like, 18 00:00:56,620 --> 00:00:59,560 what it is you do, like, how would you summarize it if you 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,460 had to compress it into, you know, a couple of sentences and 20 00:01:02,460 --> 00:01:05,520 said, you know, here's who I am, here's what who I serve, here's 21 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,500 the solution I provide. What would you say? 22 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:10,920 Benjamin Shapiro: You know, I think the timeline is important 23 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,640 here. And so I'll give you the preview of sort of where it came 24 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,060 from. And what I'm doing today. I started off working for in 25 00:01:18,060 --> 00:01:21,200 technology, for eBay, so big company was doing business 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,900 development, transitioned into SEO, and learned a lot about 27 00:01:24,260 --> 00:01:28,760 content at scale. And then I ran my own startup, which was a 28 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,840 content business for a little while. I ended up running the 29 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,540 marketing department at some early stage startups that were 30 00:01:35,540 --> 00:01:38,480 VC backed trying to find the pot of gold at the end of the 31 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,640 rainbow. And I got a little tired of the work all day, work 32 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,040 all night. Somebody else owns the company. You don't get a lot 33 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,000 of equity, and you're deferring your salary equation as I grew 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,780 up and started a family. So I decided to start my own company 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,780 and become an independent marketing consultant, basically 36 00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:58,780 taking cash up front for the work that I was doing to help 37 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:02,280 the same type of companies that I was working for as an in house 38 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:08,640 employee, and about a year and a half ago, I started a podcast 39 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:14,040 called The martech podcast. The website is martechpod.com and 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,920 that was meant to be a lead generation tool for my 41 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,840 consulting practice. And the podcast ended up growing way 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:26,180 faster than I ever would have expected. You know, we ended up 43 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:30,020 having 10s of 1000s of downloads and 10s of 1000s of listeners 44 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:34,280 within the first year. And so I decided, instead of focusing on 45 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:37,940 helping one brand at a time figure out how to run their 46 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:40,720 marketing departments, I would spend my time talking to great 47 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,740 marketers and providing a content and a sponsorship 48 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:49,300 advertising vehicle for customers. And so now I am 49 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:52,780 basically a talking head almost all of the time. I work on my 50 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:55,780 podcast, and I actually have a couple of them that are I'm 51 00:02:55,780 --> 00:02:59,680 actively working on full time, and it's been a long road, and 52 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,380 somehow I ended up being a podcaster 53 00:03:02,099 --> 00:03:04,019 Robert Plank: cool. And I mean, that's the way that it should 54 00:03:04,019 --> 00:03:07,859 be, right, is some, sometimes those dead ends kind of push you 55 00:03:07,859 --> 00:03:10,319 into the avenue that you should get on, and sometimes you have 56 00:03:10,319 --> 00:03:12,839 to go through the failures to get through the successes. Or 57 00:03:12,839 --> 00:03:16,259 sometimes some of those avenues just kind of outlive their 58 00:03:16,259 --> 00:03:18,899 usefulness. And it's really, it's really interesting, the way 59 00:03:18,899 --> 00:03:21,979 that you put that about the working at some of those 60 00:03:21,979 --> 00:03:24,259 startups, right? Where the way you position is, it's like, 61 00:03:24,259 --> 00:03:26,179 worse than a job, right? Because, at least with a job 62 00:03:26,179 --> 00:03:28,219 like you're working for someone else, and you have steady 63 00:03:28,219 --> 00:03:31,099 income, but you were saying there that you you were working 64 00:03:31,099 --> 00:03:34,819 but then not really getting paid, and not having equity, and 65 00:03:34,819 --> 00:03:38,179 then it's like, the next step from that is maybe having some 66 00:03:38,179 --> 00:03:41,079 clients, but then the ideal situation where you're in is 67 00:03:41,079 --> 00:03:44,559 kind of being more one to many, where you can, you have your own 68 00:03:44,559 --> 00:03:47,319 traffic, you have your own platform, and then you can, 69 00:03:47,439 --> 00:03:50,379 like, kind of pick and choose what it is. You have more 70 00:03:50,379 --> 00:03:51,699 freedom that way. Look, it's 71 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:54,520 Benjamin Shapiro: always about what's right for you personally. 72 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,500 And so when I was working for the VC backed startups, that was 73 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:02,100 great. It was fine. It was a wonderful job. It was the job 74 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:05,580 that I had been trying to get for almost a decade. And, you 75 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:08,580 know, I did it a couple of times, and at that point in my 76 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:12,240 life, you know, it's really about the risk equation. I 77 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,920 wanted to spend my time working for a high growth startup that 78 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,960 had a potentially huge valuation. So if that company 79 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,560 became the next Uber I was going to be super successful and was 80 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,280 going to vote my career forward. My life changed over the five 81 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:31,400 years that I was working for VC backed startups, not to say that 82 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,000 they're bad jobs. It's just I had a wife, a kid. I needed to 83 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,940 be able to spend more time at home. I needed more flexibility, 84 00:04:37,940 --> 00:04:42,700 and I didn't want the sort of brow beating pressure that the 85 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:45,640 venture capital community was putting on the founder of the 86 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,460 company that it was working on. And then he, in turn, went to me 87 00:04:48,460 --> 00:04:50,800 and said, I need more growth. You're not doing a good job 88 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,700 keep, you know, pulling rabbits out of a hat. And I just that 89 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:57,400 wasn't the right equation for me. And some people, you know, 90 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,740 when they're younger, when they're just, you know, a little 91 00:04:59,740 --> 00:05:03,240 more. Risk tolerant, that's fine. I just found the balance 92 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,040 for me saying I'm going to go help provide services and 93 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:11,940 understand what my compensation is going to be earlier in the 94 00:05:11,940 --> 00:05:15,720 sort of relationship to be a better fit. It helped me sleep 95 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,300 at night. I felt like I had more ownership, more autonomy. I 96 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:22,460 liked what I was doing, and I was better working for multiple 97 00:05:22,460 --> 00:05:25,880 companies, helping them set up their brand development, their 98 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,780 marketing infrastructure, their strategy, better than it was 99 00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:33,320 being a day to day operator, you know, grinding out what Facebook 100 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,640 ad campaign we should be running today versus tomorrow. So I just 101 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:39,920 feel like I found the sweet spot. For me, it's not 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,840 necessarily to say that the VC backed startup community is bad. 103 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,960 It's great. I still, you know, work with them a ton now 104 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:50,140 they're, you know, my sponsors, as opposed to my employers, and 105 00:05:50,979 --> 00:05:52,599 Robert Plank: that, yeah, that's a really good point you make 106 00:05:52,599 --> 00:05:56,139 that there's almost like, like, five or six factors in figuring 107 00:05:56,139 --> 00:05:59,799 out what the right fit is for you, as far as, like, the the 108 00:05:59,799 --> 00:06:03,119 activities that you do, that risk tolerance, and then that 109 00:06:03,119 --> 00:06:06,059 might change over time. It might change in the aspect of, like 110 00:06:06,059 --> 00:06:09,599 you said, you get older, you get a family, or maybe like you're 111 00:06:09,599 --> 00:06:13,319 burnout, or maybe there's also that kind of issue of, there's 112 00:06:13,319 --> 00:06:16,739 sometimes what you think you are, or you think you would 113 00:06:16,739 --> 00:06:19,139 enjoy, and then you actually go out and do it, and then 114 00:06:19,139 --> 00:06:22,039 sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and it's actually a 115 00:06:22,039 --> 00:06:25,399 good thing, right? Because those old days of being locked into a 116 00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:28,039 career that you hate and just waiting to retirement that's 117 00:06:28,039 --> 00:06:30,919 kind of gone now, because now we have all these extra 118 00:06:31,039 --> 00:06:35,659 possibilities here. So as far as what you have evolved into and 119 00:06:35,659 --> 00:06:39,319 what you've grown you said that your podcast ended up growing 120 00:06:39,319 --> 00:06:42,399 very quickly and ended up being very successful. Do you know 121 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:44,919 why? Or were there, like, specific things that you think 122 00:06:44,919 --> 00:06:47,739 that you did correctly, the others missed out on? Or what's 123 00:06:47,739 --> 00:06:48,399 to do with that? 124 00:06:48,399 --> 00:06:49,839 Benjamin Shapiro: I think there's a couple of different 125 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,679 factors into growing a podcast, and I think we did, for the most 126 00:06:53,679 --> 00:06:57,339 part, them, all, four or five of them, relatively well. And it 127 00:06:57,339 --> 00:07:00,479 wasn't necessarily intentional. I got a little lucky. The 128 00:07:00,479 --> 00:07:03,959 podcast is the martech podcast, and there are people that are 129 00:07:03,959 --> 00:07:08,759 searching for martech or martech podcasts, and just based on the 130 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:11,579 name and the titles of the content, we ended up getting a 131 00:07:11,579 --> 00:07:14,639 fair amount of organic traffic through the App Store up front. 132 00:07:14,639 --> 00:07:18,239 So your names, your titles. You know, when you think about right 133 00:07:18,239 --> 00:07:20,659 creating a podcast, a lot of people have these really 134 00:07:20,659 --> 00:07:25,039 interesting, creative titles, the Ben Shapiro experience, or 135 00:07:25,039 --> 00:07:28,279 whatever it's going to be. And people aren't looking for Ben 136 00:07:28,279 --> 00:07:32,359 Shapiro and experience, they're looking for martech. So by 137 00:07:32,359 --> 00:07:36,559 naming our podcast something that was highly searched by the 138 00:07:36,559 --> 00:07:40,579 marketing community, we got a fair amount of interest upfront. 139 00:07:41,899 --> 00:07:45,579 There's virality, organic, paid and partnerships. Those are 140 00:07:45,579 --> 00:07:49,599 really the channels. So we did organic relatively well based on 141 00:07:49,599 --> 00:07:53,139 the name and the way that we titled our content. Virality, we 142 00:07:53,139 --> 00:07:56,979 produce a lot of content, and it's an interview show where I'm 143 00:07:56,979 --> 00:08:00,239 having multiple guests come on per week. We move towards a 144 00:08:00,239 --> 00:08:04,139 daily format, so we have one episode per day, seven days a 145 00:08:04,139 --> 00:08:07,259 week, but we really have about three to four guests per month. 146 00:08:07,259 --> 00:08:09,899 We'll break up the interviews into a couple different parts to 147 00:08:09,899 --> 00:08:13,559 keep them the right format. And so because we have so many 148 00:08:13,559 --> 00:08:16,619 guests, they're sharing the content with their community, 149 00:08:16,619 --> 00:08:19,079 and we're building the assets for them to share. So that's 150 00:08:19,079 --> 00:08:22,879 virality paid that was actually probably the secret sauce for 151 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:26,179 us. I stumbled on a paid marketing channel where most 152 00:08:26,179 --> 00:08:28,519 people are thinking, hey, I'm going to promote my podcast, I'm 153 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:31,579 going to go on to Facebook or I'm going to do AdWords. We 154 00:08:31,579 --> 00:08:35,299 ended up marketing on other podcasts. There's a platform 155 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:40,779 called knit k n, i t, where you can buy really inexpensive ad 156 00:08:40,779 --> 00:08:43,299 inventory. We recorded an ad saying, hey, come listen to the 157 00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:46,539 martech podcast if you want to learn how businesses grow. And 158 00:08:46,539 --> 00:08:51,819 we would put our 30 to 62nd ad into other podcasts for like $1 159 00:08:52,299 --> 00:08:54,939 per 1000 downloads. It was really, really cheap, and that 160 00:08:54,939 --> 00:08:59,199 ended up being really great for us. Now we're running those ads 161 00:08:59,199 --> 00:09:02,219 on like the CNN network and stuff that isn't specifically 162 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:05,159 related to marketing, but because the inventory is so 163 00:09:05,159 --> 00:09:08,939 cheap, we can cast a wide net. And the last thing is 164 00:09:08,939 --> 00:09:11,399 partnerships. And I, you know, I throw this conversation in 165 00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:14,759 there, working with brands, you know, working with other 166 00:09:14,759 --> 00:09:17,819 influencers, building relationship and finding ways to 167 00:09:17,819 --> 00:09:20,959 collaborate. And that's another way to, you know, meet new 168 00:09:20,959 --> 00:09:23,419 audiences. And that's really what we're focused and focused 169 00:09:23,419 --> 00:09:27,379 on now, trying to continue to grow without always investing 170 00:09:27,379 --> 00:09:31,339 back into paid channels. So those combination of four things 171 00:09:31,339 --> 00:09:33,979 are really the secret sauce for us. Super 172 00:09:33,980 --> 00:09:35,900 Robert Plank: cool, yeah, and it's like, and I'm sure that 173 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:39,620 those, those four channels, you said, organic virality, paid in 174 00:09:39,620 --> 00:09:43,420 partnerships. I'm sure they're not equally distributed, but for 175 00:09:43,420 --> 00:09:46,780 sure, you make sure not to neglect one, like, like, I do 176 00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:50,080 you agree that maybe out of those four channels, like for 177 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,720 any podcast, they shouldn't be none of those channels should be 178 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,360 zero, right? Everyone should be at least pursuing or looking 179 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,000 into like, some of each category, right? 180 00:09:58,300 --> 00:09:59,920 Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, you know, I think the important. 181 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,520 Think about is, it depends what your goals, and this is where 182 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,160 marketing strategy comes in, really building the foundation 183 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,340 and understanding what you're trying to accomplish. If you are 184 00:10:08,340 --> 00:10:11,100 in a hurry, and you need to get an audience, and you need to 185 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:14,280 prove that the podcast, you know, you need to validate it 186 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,100 quickly. You want to lead on paid right? You're going to get 187 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:22,340 more $1 in equals one download. You know, that's going to happen 188 00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:26,000 faster on the paid channel. Developing an organic following, 189 00:10:26,060 --> 00:10:29,120 you don't have to pay up front. You just have to do the work and 190 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,540 create the content and do the syndication. But that grows on 191 00:10:32,540 --> 00:10:34,880 itself over time. So if you think about it in terms of, 192 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,540 like, units of value, if I put $1 in, I get a unit of value 193 00:10:38,540 --> 00:10:42,700 tomorrow with paid if I'm doing an organic, you know, growth 194 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:46,480 strategy, I might put $1 worth of effort in and get 10 cents 195 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,080 today, but I might also get 10 cents tomorrow, and 20 cents the 196 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,840 next day, and 30 cents the next day. And it starts to build to 197 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,840 the point where eventually it becomes, over time, more 198 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,140 valuable than that paid investment, but it takes the 199 00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:03,240 time. So we focused on paid upfront, because we wanted to 200 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,360 validate that we could grow an audience. And now that we're, 201 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,140 you know, 40 to 50,000 downloads a month, and we have, you know, 202 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:15,300 a very steady monetization path, we're now starting to focus on 203 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:19,620 organic so we can be more profitable, and, you know, build 204 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:21,020 more sustainable growth. 205 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:24,860 Robert Plank: Well, great. And, and so I like that you dropped 206 00:11:24,860 --> 00:11:28,040 that, that knit ad platform, because, I mean, as you know, 207 00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:31,040 there's always, there's always more ad platforms to find, 208 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,680 right? It's like, we think we know every traffic source that 209 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,760 there is, and you always find new ones. And like, for, for the 210 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:42,340 podcasting advertising, I think I found, like, mid roll and saw 211 00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:44,500 and gave up. And I thought, like, you know, I don't want to 212 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:48,700 blow 20 grand for one podcast on like, you know, comedy, bang, 213 00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:52,000 bang, or Adam Carolla, but like, so that's great that there are 214 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,020 other possibilities for maybe, like, more low ticket things 215 00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:58,600 where it's not as this huge $20,000 risk, 216 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:01,020 Benjamin Shapiro: and you're thinking about exactly how I did 217 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:03,960 before I had found the knit platform, I went to mid roll and 218 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,440 said, I want to test this channel. I want to put $3,000 219 00:12:08,580 --> 00:12:12,000 into a month of advertising. And they're like, that's going to 220 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,140 get you, like somebody sneezing your name with the last two 221 00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:20,100 seconds of a podcast on our smallest show. And the reason 222 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:24,620 for that is that mid roll does host red advertising, where the 223 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:29,540 sponsor is actually reading your ad in real time. Knit is dynamic 224 00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:34,160 insertion, so you record your own ad, and then you can put 225 00:12:34,220 --> 00:12:38,120 $100 of budget, $1,000 10,000 you decide how many impressions 226 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,720 you want to get, what your budget is. It's a marketplace, 227 00:12:41,140 --> 00:12:43,840 and you know, you don't get the same amount of credibility 228 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,160 because the host isn't reading your ad, you're reading it, but 229 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,460 you also get a significantly cheaper inventory, and you can 230 00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:55,240 figure out what channels and what shows work for you without 231 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:56,680 blowing your budget. 232 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,740 Robert Plank: Yeah and, yeah. And then, so, so, so yeah, and 233 00:13:01,740 --> 00:13:05,340 so we should all be looking into, like other just untapped 234 00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:09,420 ways of of getting this traffic and then, so, so, another area 235 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:12,060 where I think that you and I are pretty alike is that we've 236 00:13:12,060 --> 00:13:14,460 interviewed a crapload of people, right? I think this is 237 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:19,680 maybe episode 715 of this podcast or so. And, yeah, yeah. 238 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,540 And so, I mean, but why mess around, right? And but then you 239 00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:26,480 tell people that, and they get, like, a little like, I don't 240 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,780 know, like, discouraged, right? Because it's not like, they're 241 00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:32,060 like, Oh well, I was only planning on doing 10 episodes or 242 00:13:32,060 --> 00:13:38,240 20 episodes and so, but what I don't know, like, I did, I 243 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,620 started doing, like, a lot of interviews because I knew that I 244 00:13:41,620 --> 00:13:44,140 wanted to have traffic. I didn't want to be, like, dependent on 245 00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:47,920 one or two traffic sources. I wanted to replace, like, the the 246 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,940 networking, the like the, you know, not having always go to 247 00:13:51,940 --> 00:13:54,940 like, a new event every week or every month, and so as far as 248 00:13:54,940 --> 00:13:58,780 you doing just like a crapload of these, these interviews and 249 00:13:58,780 --> 00:14:01,920 like, having a seven day a week show having all this organic 250 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,460 traffic. Like, what was the reasoning behind that? And did 251 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,400 you go into it with that plan? Or did it, like, kind of just 252 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,420 grow into a daily show? 253 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,560 Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, you know, it's all about 254 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,980 experimentation. We started with, you know, interviews that 255 00:14:13,980 --> 00:14:18,120 were about an hour, and I saw that people were dropping off 256 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,540 listening to the interviews about halfway through, a little 257 00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:23,480 less than halfway. So people were listening to 2025, minutes 258 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,960 of each episode and consistently dropping off. So I said, Okay, 259 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,380 well, what happens if I just take the interviews that are 50 260 00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:33,680 minutes and cut them in two, and then all of a sudden, the 261 00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:36,080 consumption rates for the interviews went up, and I was 262 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,500 getting twice the number of downloads. And so that, just 263 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:42,520 through experimentation, looking at the data that I had on hand 264 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,780 told me what the length of content that worked for my show 265 00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:51,580 and my audience they want, 18 to 22 minute pieces of content, 266 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,660 their commute size. Content, their treadmill length. Content, 267 00:14:56,140 --> 00:14:59,560 and we can produce discrete pieces that are interesting. 268 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,240 That's. Self contained and publish them on a daily 269 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,700 perspective. So when somebody wants to learn something about 270 00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:08,460 marketing, they can put in their podcast, they can listen for 20 271 00:15:08,460 --> 00:15:10,980 minutes. They'll get something out of it, and boom, we're done. 272 00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:14,280 Now knowing that that was the right format of content, I knew 273 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,540 that I can break up interviews into 20 minute segments, so I 274 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:21,680 can interview somebody for an hour and a half and get a week's 275 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,460 worth of content, basically. So we started experimenting with 276 00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:28,460 different formats, where we do weekly series. A 90 minute 277 00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:31,640 interview becomes five episodes, and now all of a sudden, I'm not 278 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,400 interviewing somebody every day to produce a week of content. 279 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,480 I'm interviewing one person to create an entire week of 280 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,740 content. And we mix some different formats. Sometimes we 281 00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:44,560 do longer format content. Sometimes we do, you know, 282 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,560 really, really short stuff. But for the most part, we try to aim 283 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,400 for 18 to 20 minutes, and I get multiple pieces of content out 284 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,380 of each interview. Well, 285 00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:55,420 Robert Plank: fantastic. And I like that a lot. How you're 286 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,120 there's that, there's the factor of, like, playing around a 287 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,960 little bit and, you know, experimenting, but then also 288 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440 looking at the data, because it's like, so it's sometimes 289 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,500 easy to get discouraged, right? Like, for example, I like to 290 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,380 email every single day, and that's another kind of thing 291 00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:12,660 where people get kind of mad even hearing that. Or, like, why 292 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:14,880 would you bombard your list like that? And it's like, well, 293 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,160 because I tried it just for fun for a while, and it worked 294 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,040 better than not doing it. So why? And there weren't that many 295 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,780 downsides. So why not continue doing it? And I'm hearing that a 296 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:28,100 little bit from you. And so then as far as people actually like 297 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,700 getting traction on the podcast, right? Because in order to grow 298 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,400 a podcast, you have to keep on cranking up the content. In 299 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,060 order to experiment, you need to, you know, keep on making new 300 00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:40,900 episodes and trying new things. And I'm sure that you like at 301 00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:43,840 different points. Looked at some of these podcast stats, right? 302 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,360 Since you're a podcast Growth Guy, sometimes you want to find 303 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,020 these stats so that way you can market the the advantages of 304 00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:53,260 podcasting. But one thing that I found a few months ago, which 305 00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:57,580 was really sad, is that the average podcast last six 306 00:16:57,580 --> 00:17:00,720 episodes. I'm not sure if you heard this so like, what do you 307 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,000 think that is and and how can all these, like, just want to be 308 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,060 podcasters and current podcasters, how can they avoid 309 00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:10,860 becoming one of those statistics? I 310 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,320 Benjamin Shapiro: don't know if there's a way to avoid it. I 311 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,700 think that's just reality that some people are going to, you 312 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:21,200 know, start the venture and realize that the content 313 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,680 production is too time consuming, too hard, too 314 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,380 expensive for them to want to do. And that's the learning out 315 00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:30,140 of the experiment. It's fine to experiment and say, This isn't 316 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:34,760 for me and move on. That's not a bad thing. I think the learning 317 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,600 here is that you know you need to have the infrastructure and 318 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,900 you need to be able to outsource some of the tasks that you don't 319 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:47,020 want to do. And I'll tell you a little bit about how we've done 320 00:17:47,020 --> 00:17:50,200 this. You know, I started off where I was editing the first 321 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,340 podcast. I was creating the show notes, I was publishing the 322 00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:58,000 content, I was doing the guest coordination, I was doing the 323 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,380 content syndication to all of our social channels. I don't do 324 00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:04,440 any of that now, right? We have infrastructure, and I've 325 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,500 basically figured out the process to do the things that we 326 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:11,280 need to do to get a piece of content created, recorded, 327 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,260 edited, you know, transcribed, have copy written, have it 328 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:19,440 published, and have it shared. And there are other people that 329 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,960 are handling all that. So, you know, Upwork and Fiverr and all 330 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,720 these places where you can find really talented people from 331 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,960 around the world that are significantly less expensive 332 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,500 than you doing the work. Like, if I had any advice, it would 333 00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:37,100 be, figure out what your process is, do it yourself a few times 334 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:40,480 those first six episodes, and then stop and find other people 335 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,880 to do the hard stuff that you don't want to do. I'm not a 336 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,640 great editor. I don't know anything about audio mastering. 337 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,700 I found an editor on Upwork. He's fantastic. He's been 338 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:51,700 working with me for 20 months. And every time I record a piece 339 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:54,400 of content, I record the interview, I hand it to him. I 340 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,460 never listened to it again. It just gets published. It gets 341 00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:00,480 handed from him to our transcriptionist, to our 342 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,700 copywriter, to our publisher. You know, I'm I'm done after the 343 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,940 interview is actually recorded, because I've built the process 344 00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:11,400 and handed it off to somebody that hands it each step of the 345 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,580 way. So eventually you start building the machine instead of 346 00:19:14,580 --> 00:19:17,280 doing everything yourself, and that becomes significantly less 347 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,540 work, and you can focus on things like scheduling great 348 00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:23,720 guests, doing a great job with your research, recording great 349 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,420 episodes, and, hey, monetizing your podcast too. 350 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,680 Robert Plank: Yeah, imagine that, right? Imagine actually 351 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,380 not running on the hamster wheel of the podcast, and actually, 352 00:19:33,380 --> 00:19:37,040 like, making money from it. And and I agree completely that it's 353 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,060 like, it's almost like you kind of have to blaze the trail a 354 00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:43,180 little bit yourself just to figure out, like, will I do show 355 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:46,420 notes? Will I do transcripts? Where do I post? Maybe, if you, 356 00:19:46,420 --> 00:19:49,540 if you feel like being a little bit of a control freak there, 357 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,420 but as you said, there, that gets old really quickly of just 358 00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:55,300 going through that monotonous stuff. But then there, it 359 00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:59,200 requires a little bit of letting go of the ego and saying, Do I 360 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,800 want to spend a. Hour doing this, or just, do I want to 361 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,920 throw 10 bucks to the person at five or Upwork for this one 362 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:05,580 episode, the 363 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:07,500 Benjamin Shapiro: three most important words that I can tell 364 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:12,240 you, and they have to be in this order, experiment, document, 365 00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:16,320 outsource, right? That's the secret to building a content 366 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,660 business in the modern era. Today, figure out what your 367 00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:24,020 content is going to be, figure out where you are going to be 368 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,160 special and unique. Document what you're doing in terms of 369 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,040 your content production, and then outsource the stuff that 370 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,500 you don't want to do so you can focus on doing what you do, 371 00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:33,800 great, 372 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,460 Robert Plank: fantastic. Well, along those lines, along the 373 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:40,600 lines of doing what you do great, and making your podcast 374 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,120 the best that it can be as we're beginning to wind down our 375 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,600 conversation, and wanted to make sure that we cover a tiny, tiny 376 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,100 bit of podcast monetization. So do you have a favorite way of 377 00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:54,760 monetizing your podcast these days, or is it a mix? Yeah. 378 00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:56,860 Benjamin Shapiro: So I think what we do on the monetization 379 00:20:56,860 --> 00:21:00,340 front is unique, and I we talk about this a lot on the martech 380 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:04,320 podcast once a month, I do a monthly recap of how we're 381 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,440 marketing the show and how we're monetizing it, and I go into a 382 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,380 lot of detail. We're open kimono, and so I'm going to 383 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:13,920 share some numbers, and it's I'm not trying to brag, but I think 384 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,200 it's important for podcasters who are thinking about 385 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,660 monetization to understand across my podcast content 386 00:21:20,660 --> 00:21:23,480 production business and my sponsorship business, we 387 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,680 generated about $300,000 worth of revenue across three podcasts 388 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,100 this year. I know that sounds like a lot. We also spent 389 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:34,700 $100,000 on marketing. I have a content production team that's 390 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,240 six people. That was 10s of 1000s of dollars as well. So 391 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,440 it's not all profit, but revenue wise, we're just right around 392 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,860 $300,000 which is a mark that I'm really proud of, because 393 00:21:44,860 --> 00:21:48,340 this is the first year that we've actually tried to monetize 394 00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:53,980 podcast content. The trap in podcast monetization is going 395 00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:58,000 through the traditional CPM model. You can and the industry 396 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,840 will tell you, when you have an audience that's over 10,000 397 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:05,880 downloads, you can start selling your sponsorship spot at a 25 to 398 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,780 $50 CPM, depending on your audience. That is, excuse my 399 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:14,700 language, bullshit. Don't do it. Don't sell for regular CPMs. 400 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:19,980 Because do the math on this, 10,000 downloads at a $25 CPM. 401 00:22:20,340 --> 00:22:25,100 That is 10 units times $25 that's $250 for 10,000 402 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,140 downloads. What we do is we have three separate products, 403 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,460 advertorial content. We work with brands to tell their story. 404 00:22:35,060 --> 00:22:38,480 Sponsorship, advertising, we're going to do advertising. We're 405 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,740 going to sell that all of our inventory for a week or a month, 406 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,160 and then we do content syndication. So we're taking the 407 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,860 advertorial content that we have, and we're not just 408 00:22:47,860 --> 00:22:50,680 exposing the audience that listens to the martech podcast, 409 00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:53,680 but we're running Facebook campaigns, programmatic 410 00:22:53,740 --> 00:22:58,540 advertising, native advertising, to share the content with other 411 00:22:58,540 --> 00:23:01,500 people that look like our content consumers. We can create 412 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,920 look alike audience based on the people that are consuming our 413 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,700 content. And so we know that we can, hey, if 1000 people are 414 00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:12,840 going to listen to my episode about marketing attribution, I 415 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,120 can take that audience and I could create a look alike 416 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,480 audience on Facebook and find another 10,000 people that are 417 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,380 interested or that look like people that are interested in 418 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,060 that subject. And so that combination of telling the 419 00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:29,720 story, sharing it on a regular basis with our audience, and 420 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,780 then sharing it outside of our audience makes our average deal 421 00:23:32,780 --> 00:23:37,760 size about 7500 to $10,000 per relationship, and the 422 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,560 relationships last between one to two months, as opposed to 250 423 00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:46,420 bucks to sell all of our ad inventory. There is another way, 424 00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:49,360 and I'm happy to go into more detail if you want. I know we're 425 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,760 kind of getting to the end of the show, but we talk about this 426 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,220 a ton on the martech podcast. Well, 427 00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:58,300 Robert Plank: is there a specific episode or with your, 428 00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:01,320 like, your monthly thing? Is there, like, a an easy, easy 429 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,440 place to send people to. So that way we're sending them over to 430 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,800 keep this conversation going, to find out the answer on your 431 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,300 show. Is there an easy way to do that? 432 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:10,860 Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, you know, we just launched a new 433 00:24:10,860 --> 00:24:14,760 website, M, A, R, T, E, C, let me see, I forgot what the 434 00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:20,040 martech pod. We launched a new website, the martech pod. It's 435 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:26,300 martechpod.com and at the bottom of every page, there is our 436 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:30,020 categories. And so if you click on the podcasts category at the 437 00:24:30,020 --> 00:24:33,200 bottom of the page, that's the quickest way to find all of our 438 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,960 monthly updates. So if you go back through and listen to the 439 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,380 monthly updates, that's probably the easiest way to sort of 440 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:43,240 follow the path they're 10 to 15 minutes long. We've done 20 of 441 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,760 them, and that will literally tell you, hey. Month one, this 442 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,100 is what I was thinking. This is what happened. Here's what we 443 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:50,560 experimented. Here's how it went. Month two, you could 444 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,800 follow it, you know, episode by episode, month by month, I think 445 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,980 that's the easiest way to find that content, or just go into, 446 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,020 you know, whatever podcast player looking. And each monthly 447 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:05,280 update says, you know, July, 2018 update. It has the listed 448 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,720 by month and says update on 449 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,360 Robert Plank: it. Well, fantastic. And that's always the 450 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,300 the trap of of giving that detailed information, right? 451 00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:16,800 It's that it's one extreme is to be evergreen. But then kind of 452 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,140 general, you can't go into details. And then when you do go 453 00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,620 into details, sometimes they're really specific, sometimes 454 00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:24,800 timely, things that might change over time, or might be different 455 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,260 advice for different people. So this is great. This way people 456 00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:31,460 can just go to martechpod.com, click on podcast and find those 457 00:25:31,460 --> 00:25:34,280 monthly updates. That way you can choose to just start at the 458 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,620 most recent, get cutting edge stuff, or start at the 459 00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:40,960 beginning, see what that has been historically, month over 460 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,740 month and so, yeah, you've given us a lot of things to think 461 00:25:44,740 --> 00:25:48,280 about today, as far as US outsourcing our podcast, 462 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,760 experimenting with our podcast, as you said, experiment 463 00:25:51,820 --> 00:25:55,900 document, outsource, uh, build this audience. Uh, try different 464 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,720 traffic sources, try different ways to monetize. But with all 465 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,740 the the possible things that could be done. I mean, number 466 00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:04,680 one, I'm sure that you would say that they need to be subscribing 467 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,680 to your podcast that way. They kind of get that, that drip 468 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,160 feed. That way they can kind of always have you in their ear to 469 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,040 get the advice. But if someone says, you know, I want to take 470 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,760 the next step. I want to get on Benjamin Shapiro's list, I want 471 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,680 I need help growing my business and my company, how does someone 472 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,560 know if they're a right fit for you, and where should they go to 473 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,200 maybe take the next step in a relationship with you? Yeah, 474 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,940 Benjamin Shapiro: there's a couple different ways to get in 475 00:26:28,940 --> 00:26:31,520 touch with me. Get in touch with everybody that works on, you 476 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,980 know, the podcast or my consulting business. If you want 477 00:26:33,980 --> 00:26:38,540 to get in touch with me, go to benjayp.com B, E, N, j, S, H, A, 478 00:26:38,540 --> 00:26:41,800 p.com, that's my consulting website. There's a form contact 479 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,980 us, goes right into my inbox. Anybody that wants help, wants 480 00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:47,860 advice, I'm happy to, you know, support you. If you're have a 481 00:26:47,860 --> 00:26:51,340 marketing question that's really specific, if you want to be a 482 00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:54,820 guest on the martech podcast, or if you're interested in hearing 483 00:26:54,820 --> 00:26:58,720 our content, then head over to martech pod, M, A, R, T, E, C, 484 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,420 H, P, O, d.com, and you know you can link to, there's links to, 485 00:27:03,420 --> 00:27:06,540 you know, every podcast player. You can just search for martech 486 00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:10,140 pod and whatever podcast app you're looking for as well. But 487 00:27:10,140 --> 00:27:13,980 honestly, those are probably the easiest ways to get in contact 488 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:17,460 with me directly. We're on social media, martech pod, 489 00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:21,260 Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, you name it. And then my 490 00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:25,220 personal handle is Ben J shap, B, E, N, j, S, H, A, P, for all 491 00:27:25,220 --> 00:27:27,560 the social media stuff, super 492 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,500 Robert Plank: cool. So multiple ways to stay in touch. Ben J 493 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:33,920 shap on social media, martech pod on social media, 494 00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:39,020 martechpod.com Ben J shap.com so if you out there in podcast 495 00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:42,340 land, if you had a podcast and gave up on it, and it's time to 496 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:45,700 bring it back. Well, then start listening to some of this 497 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:49,240 podcast marketing advice. Start getting into some of these 498 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,540 interviews here that Ben has on his show. That way maybe it can 499 00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:55,240 reignite the spark, because at one point you were excited about 500 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,240 this kind of thing. If you want to make a podcast in the future, 501 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,180 you want to grow your podcast, but it's tough to go it alone. 502 00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:03,660 Well, you don't have to go it alone now, because in this 503 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:07,200 podcasting world, you can be always, stay, get, stay up to 504 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,200 date on what people are doing and and what are the new, uh, 505 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,260 cutting edge experiments that can be done. So the place to go 506 00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:17,940 is Ben J shap.com and martech pod.com and before we sign off 507 00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:21,560 here, Benjamin, do you have any final parting words of advice 508 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:21,920 here, 509 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,980 Benjamin Shapiro: you know, on the martech podcast, we talk to 510 00:28:24,980 --> 00:28:28,460 people that are technology driven marketers, and we 511 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,840 interview them, figuring out how they grow their business. And 512 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,740 the only piece of advice that I give consistently on every 513 00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:40,300 episode, and it's the last thing I say, is my advice is to focus 514 00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,180 on keeping your customers happy. At the end of the day, as a 515 00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:46,900 marketer, your job is to be the person in the company that 516 00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:50,080 understands who the customers are and what their needs are, so 517 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,440 you can communicate that, not only to them, communicate your 518 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,260 value proposition, but also work with the people that are in your 519 00:28:56,260 --> 00:28:59,440 company to help them understand what the customer needs are. And 520 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,280 so if you keep that North Star of I just need to keep the 521 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,920 customers happy. That'll help you figure out who they are and 522 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:05,760 where they are as well. 523 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,180 Robert Plank: Fantastic. Great advice, and thanks for stopping 524 00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:11,880 by and telling us what we need to know to move things to the 525 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,440 next step here. I really appreciate 526 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,940 Benjamin Shapiro: it. Thanks for having me as your guest, 527 00:29:17,940 --> 00:29:19,740 Robert Plank: Robert. Do you want to be a sponsor for the 528 00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:23,540 Robert plank show. Make sure to go right now to Robert plank.com 529 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,280 forward slash ask. Fill out the form and tell us how you'd like 530 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,320 to sponsor the show. Thanks for listening. You.