1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,360 Robert Plank: Hey everyone, and welcome back to the marketer of 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,180 the day podcast. I have one quick question for everyone 3 00:00:06,180 --> 00:00:09,180 watching and listening. Are you ready for your business to not 4 00:00:09,180 --> 00:00:12,780 just be dragging along, puttering along, but to grow, to 5 00:00:12,780 --> 00:00:15,960 grow exponentially and not linearly? Well, we are in the 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,980 right place. We are talking with Jim Huffman from growth hit.com 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,500 growth hit is a growth marketing consultancy, and Jim is the 8 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,680 author of the number one best selling book on Amazon, the 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,160 growth marketers playbook. We're going to hear all about e 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,640 commerce businesses, how to grow an agency to seven figures and 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,260 so much more. Jim, glad to be talking to 12 00:00:36,260 --> 00:00:39,200 Jim Huffman: you. Robert pump, to be here. Thanks for having 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:39,320 me. 14 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,160 Robert Plank: I am pumped to have you here. So, so yeah, what 15 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:44,800 are we talking about? And what the heck makes you unique? What 16 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,060 makes you stand out here? 17 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,840 Jim Huffman: Oh, man, that's a tough question. I don't know. I 18 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,700 think everyone has like, there's this, the guy who came up with 19 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:59,380 the Dilbert cartoon talks about, don't try and be great at one 20 00:00:59,380 --> 00:01:02,220 thing, but be fairly decent at three things and put them 21 00:01:02,220 --> 00:01:05,160 together to find your niche. So it's like, with anybody in the 22 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,620 role, what are those things you're putting together? So I 23 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:11,040 think with with me, it's like, I actually started my career in 24 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,000 finance, so I actually, if I have a task that involves a 25 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,440 spreadsheet, I'm game. Let's do it. And then I went into, like, 26 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,980 the world of editorial and started writing. But I think, 27 00:01:21,980 --> 00:01:24,800 like with any marketer, like trying to understand copywriting 28 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,160 is more about understanding persuasion and influence, and 29 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,120 then I just, I love early stage companies, as far as taking an 30 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,140 idea and trying to turn to a sustainable business. So when 31 00:01:36,140 --> 00:01:39,140 it's overlapping with data, copywriting and launch 32 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:41,860 strategies, that's where I really like to play. So 33 00:01:41,860 --> 00:01:45,700 hopefully that kind of answers the question a little bit. 34 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:49,000 Robert Plank: It doesn't. And I think that those three kind of 35 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,700 foundational skills you mentioned, I think those are so 36 00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:55,000 underrated and important. You said, there's kind of the 37 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,380 finance, data, spreadsheet, process side of things, there's 38 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:02,280 the writing side of things, which I mean, as you know, is 39 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,400 important, not just for like, you know, content marketing and 40 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,280 things like that, but, you know, like giving delegating 41 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,620 instructions to employees, right, having your standard 42 00:02:10,620 --> 00:02:14,580 operating procedures. And then that also fun kind of persuasion 43 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:18,540 copywriting, how to be a like a modern day Don Draper and have a 44 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,280 attention getting headline or a fun video, and then also the 45 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:26,120 kind of the magic x aspect of it, where you take an idea and 46 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,420 then turn it into, you know, goals and actions and things 47 00:02:29,420 --> 00:02:33,560 like that. And so when we're talking here about, like, growth 48 00:02:33,620 --> 00:02:36,200 marketing, growth companies, I know that you have a lot of 49 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,720 really fun like success stories, case studies. So when we talk 50 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,260 about you and your like, growing businesses. What kind of 51 00:02:44,260 --> 00:02:47,800 businesses are we talking about? What businesses have you grown 52 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,560 to just crazy, crazy amounts? 53 00:02:51,039 --> 00:02:54,819 Jim Huffman: Yeah, I think definitely, like in the direct 54 00:02:54,819 --> 00:02:57,159 to consumer space is probably where we have most of our 55 00:02:57,159 --> 00:03:01,439 experience, specifically like E commerce and Shopify. But I love 56 00:03:02,279 --> 00:03:05,939 companies that aren't going to the masses, but they have a very 57 00:03:05,939 --> 00:03:09,419 specific persona or a niche they're trying to own, and 58 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:13,679 they're trying to be the market leader of one in that because 59 00:03:13,679 --> 00:03:16,919 anytime you can, like, really know that persona so well, where 60 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,299 your your landing page copy, your ad copy, speaks directly to 61 00:03:20,299 --> 00:03:26,239 them, that's magic, that's gold. And so for us, anytime we see 62 00:03:26,239 --> 00:03:28,339 those niches or those opportunities, we get super 63 00:03:28,339 --> 00:03:31,819 excited, because we know we're up. We're into something really 64 00:03:31,819 --> 00:03:35,659 cool, like one is a brand universal standard that was 65 00:03:35,659 --> 00:03:38,779 actually, like I was with the for quite a while, and they 66 00:03:38,779 --> 00:03:44,019 tailored their product towards the woman that's size 10 or 67 00:03:44,019 --> 00:03:48,999 above. And so it was an amazing opportunity, because it's like 68 00:03:48,999 --> 00:03:53,859 70% of women in the US or that size. However, when you walk 69 00:03:53,859 --> 00:03:57,099 down Fifth Ave in New York, there isn't one store that's 70 00:03:57,099 --> 00:04:03,299 catered to them. So they're a persona that it's high demand. 71 00:04:03,299 --> 00:04:07,499 They want great products, but they're so underserved. And so 72 00:04:07,499 --> 00:04:10,559 whenever we're able to work with them, it was just like, super 73 00:04:10,559 --> 00:04:14,579 exciting, because it was a niche that, like nobody was going 74 00:04:14,579 --> 00:04:17,099 after the right way. Now it's become a little bit more 75 00:04:17,099 --> 00:04:21,019 mainstream. And so there's actually another brand that just 76 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:25,759 launched, Bala, which makes shoes for nurses. And like, 77 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:29,119 they've exploded onto the scene in the past week, just because, 78 00:04:29,119 --> 00:04:32,239 again, they know their persona, so while they're owning a niche 79 00:04:32,419 --> 00:04:34,579 and just kind of running with it. 80 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,020 Robert Plank: And I mean, there are so many like, I always find 81 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:41,920 these. I don't know if you call them obscure websites, but like 82 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,580 you said, like obscure, like apps or websites where it serves 83 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,340 a need, and you're like, why hasn't that need been served 84 00:04:48,340 --> 00:04:51,880 before? And also, like you said, it's like, very niche, and it's 85 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,940 very just, like saying just the right things to those just the 86 00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:58,780 right people that are appearing on that website. So like, how do 87 00:04:58,780 --> 00:05:03,480 you know if. Something is like it because, like, there's all 88 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,940 kinds of new, you know, companies coming and going. 89 00:05:06,060 --> 00:05:09,420 Like, is it just a matter of always staying on top of the 90 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:12,960 trends, or always, like, being genuinely curious? Like, how do 91 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,540 you know if something is like, okay, shoes for nurses, like, 92 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:19,200 that's, I can't believe that that no one's serviced that 93 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,800 before. That's going to blow up? How do you know if something's 94 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,380 huge or not, or is it just a guessing game? Yeah, 95 00:05:24,380 --> 00:05:27,020 Jim Huffman: great question. We kind of have two types of 96 00:05:27,020 --> 00:05:30,560 clients we work with. We call one the Validate client. One the 97 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,080 growth client. Growth is, like, you've got product market fit. 98 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,960 You're doing really well. Like, you know, you're getting over 99 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,100 50,000 visits per month. You're ready to test, grow, repeatable, 100 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:43,660 scalable, the Validate. That's where it's super interesting, 101 00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:46,660 because you have a really cool idea, you maybe have a little 102 00:05:46,660 --> 00:05:49,540 bit of traction, but how do you know you're on to something that 103 00:05:49,540 --> 00:05:52,540 could have that traction, that product market fit? And again, 104 00:05:52,540 --> 00:05:55,780 it's a little bit warm and fuzzy, because you can evaluate 105 00:05:55,780 --> 00:05:57,820 that from a qualitative standpoint, where you're 106 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,200 literally doing hand to hand combat, getting the product in 107 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,680 people's hands and getting their feedback. And hopefully it's not 108 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,140 your mom, your brother or sister that's telling you what you want 109 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:10,320 to hear, but it's people that are actually being honest. And 110 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,220 so one part is you're actually like, hey, you know, the numbers 111 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:17,580 aren't huge, but the 100 people that have the product, the 50 112 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:20,220 people that have it, they love it, and they're literally 113 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:23,300 writing and telling us about it. The other way to do that, from a 114 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:28,160 quantitative standpoint, is like Sean Ellis has a 40% rule where, 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,520 if you actually message your email list or your customers, 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,220 you're like, hey, if this went away, how would you feel? And if 117 00:06:34,220 --> 00:06:38,120 40% say, I would be very disappointed if this product 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,480 disappeared, you're on to something. The other thing is, 119 00:06:40,660 --> 00:06:44,200 if you have a product that has high repeat purchase, do you 120 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,320 have healthy repeat purchase numbers if you're actually 121 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,760 asking them to refer a friend or to leave a review? Do you have 122 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,140 healthy metrics around that? And same with like, how far do you 123 00:06:56,140 --> 00:06:59,620 have to go to acquire them? Are you having to do discounts? You 124 00:06:59,620 --> 00:07:02,520 know, BOGOs, buy only, get one, freeze, give away free product, 125 00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:06,360 or do you just put it out there and you're starting to get 126 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,900 traction without having to do all those backflips. So it's a 127 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:12,300 lot of things. We're kind of, we have a checklist we go through 128 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,180 to be like, Okay, have you validated this? Because the 129 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:18,240 thing that I hate seeing is people launch a product, they 130 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,320 launch an idea, and they start investing in growth tactics, 131 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,260 paid acquisition or whatnot. It's like, let's take a step 132 00:07:24,260 --> 00:07:27,140 back, like we haven't proven traction. We haven't proven 133 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:31,460 product market fit. Let's make sure you know your persona that 134 00:07:31,460 --> 00:07:34,760 loves this, then we can put gasoline on the fire and start 135 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,620 investing in some growth channels. 136 00:07:37,460 --> 00:07:39,380 Robert Plank: And so it seems like, as you're explaining some 137 00:07:39,380 --> 00:07:42,880 of these scenarios, that there's, like, there's an ideal, 138 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,360 like, state of the business that it's in by the time they find 139 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,580 you right. It's, it seems like, based on what you're saying 140 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:53,560 here, that an ideal client for you. They have a good idea. They 141 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,900 know their numbers. Maybe they've done they've taken a lot 142 00:07:55,900 --> 00:07:59,380 of actions, but maybe there's, like, a lot of chaos around what 143 00:07:59,380 --> 00:08:02,100 they're doing. And maybe maybe they're like, not sure if 144 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:04,980 they're wasting money here or if they're spending a lot of time 145 00:08:04,980 --> 00:08:07,740 there. And then it seems like, as you describe your mindset, 146 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:11,340 that maybe you're a lot about, like, the cleanup and the focus 147 00:08:11,460 --> 00:08:14,340 and the kind of figuring out the metrics in order to kind of 148 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:16,740 steer the ship in the right direction. Is that on the right 149 00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:17,040 track? 150 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:20,720 Jim Huffman: Yeah, you're spot on. Like, we, if it's a validate 151 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,720 type of client, like we're actually extremely selective in 152 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,840 a few different regards. One, do we believe they have some 153 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,260 signals of traction where we can come in and really validate it 154 00:08:30,260 --> 00:08:33,920 and get it to that growth phase? And quite honestly, do they have 155 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,360 the funding to be able to set this up for success on the 156 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,320 growth side, that's really exciting, because they're 157 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,600 clearly demonstrating value, they're making money, they're 158 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,140 getting traffic. That's when we come in, and we really help. 159 00:08:47,140 --> 00:08:49,960 Like, where we kind of hang our hat is, call it growth 160 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,140 experiments, call it conversion rate optimization. But Let's 161 00:08:53,140 --> 00:08:57,460 optimize the entire marketing funnel to increase conversions, 162 00:08:57,460 --> 00:09:00,600 increase average order value as much as possible, because if 163 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,360 you're able to create that experience on the site that is 164 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,020 just a conversion machine, you are going to look like a genius 165 00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:10,140 rock star with all of your other acquisition channels, your paid 166 00:09:10,140 --> 00:09:14,220 channels, your SEO strategy, because you've built a funnel 167 00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:17,760 that's set up to convert. Because I'm just amazed. People 168 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,960 will throw hundreds of 1000s of dollars at a paid channel, but 169 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,940 they're like, Oh, I'm not sure if I want to spend on 170 00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:25,520 optimization. It's like, you're literally funneling all that 171 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,240 traffic to this experience. Let's, let's optimize it as much 172 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,620 as we can, and your ROI is going to look fantastic. And 173 00:09:33,620 --> 00:09:35,720 Robert Plank: that's a real kind of it's just that's, it messes 174 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,660 with your head right when you think about there's this amount 175 00:09:38,660 --> 00:09:41,980 of money that you're already spending on this thing, but then 176 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:45,700 moving the money into things like optimization, or sometimes 177 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:49,000 even, like, new traffic sources, it like, feels more painful than 178 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,100 other things, even though it's the same amount of money, right? 179 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,120 That's kind of a weird, like, a weird, like, kind of mindset 180 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,300 that we have. And so since we're talking about, you know, growth 181 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:00,720 and, like, kind of shooting for the moon, and. And making things 182 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,040 go crazy. Like, have you ever had to overcome any of that? 183 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,480 Like hesitation, like the like, the scarcity mindset, the 184 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,600 meekness, the sheepishness, the saying, like, oh, I don't know 185 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,060 if I should spend money on that. Like, has it ever been a 186 00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:17,880 problem, or have you always just been a poor guest, lean on the 187 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,120 fire type of guy? Yeah, 188 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,040 Jim Huffman: I think because it's funny that we have this 189 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,340 conversation people, people ask, you know, what's the budget? How 190 00:10:25,340 --> 00:10:28,760 much should we spend? I'm like, well, let's let the numbers tell 191 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,340 us. So the first thing I say is, like, first, what's the least 192 00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:34,580 amount you can spend? But where we can spend enough to start 193 00:10:34,580 --> 00:10:37,820 learning? Because we kind of have a testing phase when we're 194 00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:40,540 spending, it's like, okay, let's learn. The question is, what do 195 00:10:40,540 --> 00:10:43,780 you want to learn? It's like, what people should we get in 196 00:10:43,780 --> 00:10:47,860 front of? What offers do we need to use, what creative works to 197 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:52,060 prove an ROI positive strategy, meaning, do you understand how 198 00:10:52,060 --> 00:10:55,300 much you should spend to acquire customers, and do you understand 199 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:58,960 the lifetime value? Because once we can prove positive unit 200 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,040 economics, keep it very simple. It's like, okay, can we spend 201 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,480 under $40 to acquire a customer who we know that in 12 months 202 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:11,580 will be spending $350 with us? Because once we prove that, then 203 00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:14,160 you should almost have an unlimited budget. And that's 204 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,240 like, let's scale that up until we kind of hit diminishing 205 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,100 returns, or the unit economics don't work anymore. So if we can 206 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:26,960 get on the same page with with that approach, then it goes a 207 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,420 lot better, I mean. And of course, sometimes, like, Hey, 208 00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:33,440 we're capped at this, or the payback times a little too long. 209 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,380 I'm getting a little nervous on going above a certain amount. 210 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,620 That's fine, but if, but if we can be on the same page with 211 00:11:39,620 --> 00:11:42,460 that approach, usually it can work a lot better. 212 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,820 Robert Plank: And so this is making a lot of sense, as far 213 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:48,820 as, like, how we mentioned earlier, how you kind of have 214 00:11:48,820 --> 00:11:51,820 the science side of things and the art side of things, right, 215 00:11:51,820 --> 00:11:55,540 where sometimes it's about, well, there's this dollar in and 216 00:11:55,540 --> 00:11:58,360 that dollar out, or this conversion rate, or, wait 12 217 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,240 months of that. And so is it? Is it usually like, mostly, you 218 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,500 know, like tweaking the the mechanics, the data, or is it 219 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:11,460 more of kind of, the creative thinking outside the box, ad 220 00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:14,220 copy? Or is it a blend, like, how much would you say is like 221 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:16,800 one extreme or the other? Yeah, 222 00:12:16,860 --> 00:12:19,740 Jim Huffman: we, we go through this all the time. And the 223 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:23,180 annoying answer is, it definitely depends. But what I'm 224 00:12:23,180 --> 00:12:26,360 obsessed with right now is because I think, especially now, 225 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,240 everyone's working from home. They've got their I mean, you 226 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,340 and I both play like, three screens up. You've got your 227 00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:35,180 phone right here. There's so many things going on. And I hate 228 00:12:35,180 --> 00:12:39,140 seeing when it's a really cool product or tool that launches 229 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:41,800 and they have cool ads, and I'm like, Oh, that's awesome. But 230 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,560 then I move on to the next thing. They didn't give me a 231 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,700 reason to convert right now. They didn't give me an offer, 232 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:51,340 they didn't give me incentive. They didn't create scarcity, 233 00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:55,180 excitement. And so the thing that we're currently obsessed 234 00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:59,080 with is, you know, not just the personas and, like, the right 235 00:12:59,140 --> 00:13:04,020 copy, but what is the reason for them to take action now anything 236 00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:06,960 from, do we give them a free product in exchange for 237 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,400 referral? Do we give them early access? But if you can play with 238 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,360 all those levers that you can pull to guarantee conversion, I 239 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,420 actually start as aggressive as possible to be like, Okay, how 240 00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:21,440 do we guarantee a conversion? Throw margins out the window. 241 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,740 But then, you know, if I need to get a transaction, here's what 242 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:28,400 we do, and then you pull it back from there. So for us, we always 243 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,380 have that in the back of our mind, especially with the 244 00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:33,500 client, like, Okay, if we have to guarantee 100 conversions, 245 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:38,480 what's that extreme thing we have to do? And so for us, 246 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,960 that's what we like to do, after the copy in that persona 247 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,460 building that 248 00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:45,820 Robert Plank: is a really interesting thing to get to put 249 00:13:45,820 --> 00:13:47,680 in our head to get the gears turning right. Really 250 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:50,860 interesting question is, if we just threw margins out the 251 00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:55,120 window for now, what, what would we have to do to get those 100 252 00:13:55,420 --> 00:13:58,000 conversions? And so do you have any interesting stories like 253 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,780 that where, like the client, they were doing okay, or they 254 00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:03,480 were just stuck, and you did something like absolutely 255 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,420 batshit crazy, and it paid off. Anything like that, come to 256 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:07,200 mind? Yeah. 257 00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:10,079 Jim Huffman: And before I give an example, like, if you look at 258 00:14:10,139 --> 00:14:14,999 any high growth company, try and look at articles about them in 259 00:14:14,999 --> 00:14:17,999 their early days, and they probably did something insane 260 00:14:18,119 --> 00:14:22,819 that helped kind of catapult them so with with one brand, we 261 00:14:23,299 --> 00:14:25,519 actually probably shouldn't say their name, but we did a 262 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:30,559 partnership with BuzzFeed where we were able to give away 10,000 263 00:14:31,159 --> 00:14:34,759 of their products for free, and after they they buy the product. 264 00:14:34,759 --> 00:14:38,059 So it essentially cost us the value of the product and 265 00:14:38,059 --> 00:14:42,099 shipping, which was actually under $20 which was cheaper than 266 00:14:42,099 --> 00:14:45,219 our cost per acquisition on a social channel. So by working 267 00:14:45,219 --> 00:14:47,979 with a partner like BuzzFeed and giving away 10,000 products, 268 00:14:47,979 --> 00:14:50,199 people like, what are you doing, giving away all that, all those 269 00:14:50,199 --> 00:14:53,799 products, it's like, actually, it's cheaper than our CAC. And 270 00:14:54,219 --> 00:14:57,039 people that we give the product away to, they had to share on 271 00:14:57,039 --> 00:14:59,739 their social that they liked the brand, so they actually felt 272 00:14:59,739 --> 00:15:03,179 some. Sort of connection to it, and the repeat purchase rate was 273 00:15:03,179 --> 00:15:08,219 better than that on the page strategy. So that was a big one. 274 00:15:08,999 --> 00:15:15,479 We have done one with, like it was a SAS tool where we we 275 00:15:15,479 --> 00:15:20,299 essentially made their engineers and CEOs do 30 minute free 276 00:15:20,299 --> 00:15:24,499 audits, and we booked up their calendar quite quickly, but it 277 00:15:24,499 --> 00:15:27,319 was a great way to get 100 people in the door and excited 278 00:15:27,319 --> 00:15:32,419 about the product. So yeah, we will actually embrace giving up 279 00:15:32,419 --> 00:15:35,839 on margins or doing things that don't scale in the early days 280 00:15:35,899 --> 00:15:39,859 just to get some momentum going. Yeah, 281 00:15:39,859 --> 00:15:42,459 Robert Plank: and, and that's you're making me think of all 282 00:15:42,459 --> 00:15:45,519 kinds of like, cool and crazy examples. Like, I mean, Netflix 283 00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:48,579 is the stereotype, right? Of when they first started, they 284 00:15:48,579 --> 00:15:51,639 were all about, well, you pay this flat monthly fee, and then 285 00:15:51,699 --> 00:15:56,379 you have as many DVDs at home as you want. And you could just get 286 00:15:56,379 --> 00:15:58,719 one DVD and hang on to it, and then they still make their 287 00:15:58,719 --> 00:16:01,379 money. Or you could keep on getting a DVD and mail it back, 288 00:16:01,379 --> 00:16:04,319 and they make your money that way. And like, there's so many 289 00:16:04,439 --> 00:16:08,339 just, like ideas that are out there just waiting to be plucked 290 00:16:08,339 --> 00:16:11,339 up and in like, more like, you know, practical, smaller terms, 291 00:16:11,339 --> 00:16:14,819 what you're reminding me of is, I have a lot of different 292 00:16:14,819 --> 00:16:18,479 friends that have, like, software apps or like SAS 293 00:16:18,479 --> 00:16:23,899 products, and they'll put an early version on what some of 294 00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:26,719 these like discount Deal of the Day sites, right? Like an app, 295 00:16:27,559 --> 00:16:30,679 and then, you know, have, like, a monthly service, but say, 296 00:16:30,739 --> 00:16:34,279 well, lifetime access to AppSumo people, and then get, you know, 297 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:38,299 a few 100, a few 1000 users, just to beta test the product, 298 00:16:38,299 --> 00:16:42,099 prove it works, like, get all the everything ironed out, even 299 00:16:42,099 --> 00:16:44,559 though, from the outside looking in, you're thinking like, well, 300 00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:48,639 is that a dumb decision? Is that sustainable? But your advice 301 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:52,719 here is, who cares about that at first, we're just looking to, 302 00:16:52,839 --> 00:16:55,539 like, validate the idea, and then we can scale and figure out 303 00:16:55,539 --> 00:16:58,719 other things later. But it seems like a lot of your your thinking 304 00:16:58,719 --> 00:17:02,399 here is like, get an easy win, right? Get go for that low 305 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:03,119 hanging fruit. 306 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,400 Jim Huffman: Yeah. And the worst thing that could happen is 307 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,220 nobody knows you exist. You know, I'd rather go down in 308 00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:12,240 flames because we sold too many products and hurt the margins 309 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,660 and like, Oh, we didn't really do anything again, with the 310 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:19,020 caveat, you've got to have the long game in mind and know 311 00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:22,460 you're going to switch and be thinking about that. But yeah, 312 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:24,740 your point on AppSumo is actually huge. I've known a 313 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:29,780 couple like online education platforms and tools that looked 314 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:32,780 at that as a email acquisition approach and didn't care about 315 00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:36,320 giving away their product for free, and it definitely worked. 316 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,720 But it's it's also the way I would think about it too, is 317 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,480 whatever you're giving away for free or you're getting in front 318 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:48,400 of them, make sure it's tied to the core, magic moment, the core 319 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,340 value of your product. That way, they're like, Oh, she's got this 320 00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:54,160 free thing, but they really understand the essence of it. So 321 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,560 if you're giving away free product in E commerce, make sure 322 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,560 it's a flagship product that feels amazing, that makes them 323 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,860 look great, because I'm like, Okay, I got this for free. But 324 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:04,560 dang, this is an awesome product brand. I want to buy something 325 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,900 from them. Same on the SaaS side, if you're giving away a 326 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:11,520 free experience, a free, toned down version, make sure it gets 327 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,880 to the essence of that main, you know, value you're trying to 328 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,540 deliver. Just so it'll circle back to your goal of having a 329 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,720 sustainable business. Yeah. 330 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,760 Robert Plank: And along those lines, what you are, and you 331 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,920 reminded me of all these different things, like, what, 332 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,980 what came into my head as you were explaining that was, I 333 00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:31,580 recently came across there's that this company, flywheel, 334 00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:35,060 that like hosts WordPress sites, and they have some free product 335 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:38,180 where you, like download, and you install, like, a local 336 00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:41,320 WordPress installation, like on your computer, and it's like, 337 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,960 you click it, it makes a website. And in the past, that 338 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,960 kind of thing, it existed, but you had to install all kinds of 339 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,200 nerdy packages. And I was like, Whoa, that's crazy. That number 340 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,860 one, there's this thing that it's limited, but it's free, and 341 00:18:53,980 --> 00:18:56,860 it there was already a solution, but they kind of made like, a 342 00:18:56,860 --> 00:19:00,360 way, just like, simpler solution. And every time I think 343 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,820 it's called, like, like, local by flywheel. And every time I 344 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,520 fire up the local thing, just to do, like, you know, testing 345 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,480 programming, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's that brand, as opposed 346 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,420 to, like, you're saying, there's that mistake of just giving away 347 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:14,820 a free thing and then people like, forget where it came from, 348 00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:18,180 or forget what it's related to. And so, so, yeah, that's kind of 349 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:21,800 and so how do we I mean, do you have an example of, like, when 350 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,500 that that missed the mark? Just so that we kind of know, like, 351 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,340 how when do we how do we miss the mark? Or how do we make that 352 00:19:28,340 --> 00:19:31,520 all tie it together? Because it seems like that's an easy thing 353 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,120 to, like, just go and start running with and then, like, it 354 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,100 doesn't pay off, and then, because they didn't follow your 355 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,800 advice, I don't know what it's related to. Yeah, 356 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,160 Jim Huffman: on the B to C front. It's missed the mark a 357 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,080 couple times. When one it gets picked up by on a deal site and 358 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,420 you're not getting a friend the right personas, then you got to 359 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:52,240 kill it right away. It also missed the marks that if you do 360 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,400 it the wrong way, like, I like doing free products over 361 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,400 discounts, because if you do discounts, you're training the 362 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,240 customer, the consumer, to look out for them, especially. You do 363 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,900 it too frequently, and it's really hard to come back for 364 00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:08,040 that once you train a consumer to look for those on the B to B 365 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,700 front. We've even done it with our agency where, like we were 366 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:16,500 doing like certain site graders that weren't necessarily aligned 367 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,100 with some of the offerings that we had. And it was great for 368 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:24,500 getting emails, but the quality was not great. So it's so 369 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:28,100 important to be very honest on like, Okay, does this thing that 370 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:31,040 I'm doing align with the core value? And two, are we actually 371 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,320 getting in front of the right people, meaning they turn into 372 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,780 customers, they turn into clients, or whatever that is. 373 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,140 Robert Plank: And so it seems like, with a lot of your answers 374 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:42,220 here, a lot of the things that are that you're mentioning, it 375 00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:44,680 seems like there's like, a lot of like thinking involved, 376 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,820 right? A lot of like philosophy and sort of like, especially, 377 00:20:48,820 --> 00:20:51,340 like marketing kind of stuff. And I flipped through the first 378 00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:54,400 few pages of your book earlier, and you, you start off by 379 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,220 saying, like, if you want, if your company is missing this, 380 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,360 like, read this book. And if you need to get to that level, then 381 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:04,740 read that book. And so, like, how, how much of your time, or 382 00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:08,220 how important is it to, like, always be, like, hungry for 383 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:11,340 knowledge, and always be reading and and out of all the possible 384 00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:13,800 things that we could read to get up to speed on all this kind of 385 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,680 jargon we're talking about, Is there, like, a number one book 386 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,980 to start with, or a number one book that, like, we all need to 387 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:22,340 be reading yesterday? Yeah, 388 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:24,500 Jim Huffman: that's a great question. Yeah, especially in 389 00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:28,100 the digital landscape, it just changes so fast. There's so much 390 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:30,980 going on, but that could also be your advantage, because it moves 391 00:21:30,980 --> 00:21:33,320 so fast. If you have your finger on the pulse for the next three 392 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,540 months, you're going to be the one that knows the trend, 393 00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:39,080 especially with emerging channels and tactics. Jump on 394 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,160 those because all of a sudden you could find yourself, in 395 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,160 three to six months being the expert. That is an advantage for 396 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,740 young people getting into the game. It's something that I 397 00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:50,500 tried to do was like, Okay, what's new? Where's their 398 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,960 traction? Let me go all in, like, Facebook ads, Instagram 399 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,840 Stories. Got it, like this thing of growth hacking, growth 400 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,140 marketing. Okay, let me jump on that so and I try and build that 401 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:03,300 into my process, like I have, like, emails, I subscribe to 402 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,080 blog feeds, and then, just like, go to sources. But to answer 403 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,860 your question, for like, a go to book, I think, I mean, Sean 404 00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:13,740 Ellis is in Morgan Brown's book, hacking growth, I think is 405 00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:17,760 fantastic for understanding the full funnel approach. I will 406 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,100 say, though, just like, for under, like, at the end of the 407 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:24,380 day, it's all about, you know, messaging, copywriting, 408 00:22:24,380 --> 00:22:27,680 persuasion and influence. So like, you know, a book like 409 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,760 influence is fantastic, and Ogilvy on advertising, there's 410 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,600 some great nuggets that are just timeless in there. But one of my 411 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,740 favorite resources, not a book, is honestly just Brian Belfour 412 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,020 blog. He's the former head of growth at HubSpot, who now has 413 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:47,560 reforge, which is a kind of growth marketing training 414 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,580 program for professionals. His stuff is quite strong, 415 00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:54,940 Robert Plank: okay? And, yeah, and like, you some of these 416 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:58,480 things that you mentioned, like, like, influenced by Cialdini. 417 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,440 It's like some of these books, it's just like, there's a core 418 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,740 idea, and you understand the idea, and that's all you need to 419 00:23:04,740 --> 00:23:06,960 know. And then you read the book, and it's kind of just like 420 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,360 all these examples or implementations or like 421 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:12,840 reinforcements. So it's like, when I was younger, I used to 422 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,420 think, oh, man, I thought I was finished with school. I have to 423 00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,000 go to more reading. But it's like, so some of this, like, 424 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,320 businessy reading, it's like, full of, like stories and 425 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,540 they're interesting, and it's like, it can actually be 426 00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:26,480 entertaining. It's like, it took me a while to get over that, 427 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,300 okay, if I'm reading a book, it's not like being back in 428 00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:32,600 school, there's no test. Like, it's okay if I get bored with 429 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,500 it. And a lot of these, it's not like every page will be just all 430 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,960 this, all these things to remember. Like, a lot of the 431 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,040 time, it's just that one idea, and then some other, you know, 432 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,520 things that are based around that idea and and that that's 433 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,640 great. And it just seems like there's, like, you said, like, 434 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:51,160 be have your finger on the pulse. And it seems like it's 435 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,660 kind of an important skill these days to just kind of, like, take 436 00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:58,540 all the information in and then, like, filter it out, right? 437 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:02,280 Because they're like, if you try to, like, if you try to follow, 438 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,860 like, a low information diet these days, I think that's, 439 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,140 that's that's next to impossible, right, with all the 440 00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:10,200 things that we have to keep up on. So it's like, if you can't 441 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,680 distill down those handful of things that are important, then, 442 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,580 then maybe they figure out a way to do that. And so and yeah, so 443 00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:22,220 you said that hacking growth is that number one book out there? 444 00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:26,900 As far as like to to stay on top of things. But of course, your 445 00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:30,620 book. I mean, we should, we should rush to read your book 446 00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:33,800 before any of those other other weirdos out there. And so as 447 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,320 we're kind of beginning to wind down, and we're about to, like, 448 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,440 plug some stuff and tell people where they can go after, you 449 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,580 know, watching or listening to our interview. Is there a number 450 00:24:42,580 --> 00:24:45,880 one mistake you've seen out there, as far as like in your 451 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,580 past or with all these clients? Is there just something they 452 00:24:48,580 --> 00:24:51,160 keep saying over and over again that people just keep making the 453 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,040 same mistake that we can all just avoid or learn from? 454 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,320 Jim Huffman: Yeah, I think it's real easy to hide behind what we 455 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,100 think is worth. Work, which is like, let me work on this 456 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,740 spreadsheet. You know, I'm still working on this deck. I'm still 457 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:08,760 working on, like, the grand strategy that I'm going to 458 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,360 unveil that's going to change the world. It's like, every 459 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:15,180 people are working hard, but are they working smart? Like, have a 460 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:18,780 bias to action and learning and testing? Like we've literally, 461 00:25:18,780 --> 00:25:21,680 after working with 100 plus companies, we've tried to see 462 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,020 what's the difference between these high growth companies and 463 00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:28,100 ones that aren't and it's quite simple. It's like, are you okay 464 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,660 with moving fast, testing and failing? And it's like, the more 465 00:25:32,660 --> 00:25:36,140 you test, the more you learn, and the more you like build on 466 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:40,100 top of that knowledge, it compounds and has a huge impact. 467 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,320 And so I think it's like, have a bias towards actual action, 468 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,220 putting things out there, rather than thinking you're working but 469 00:25:48,220 --> 00:25:50,560 you're just kind of behind the scenes, and there's nothing to 470 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:51,160 show for it. 471 00:25:52,060 --> 00:25:55,240 Robert Plank: I agree completely. It's easy to play 472 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,320 mind tricks on yourself. And it's like, if you're if you have 473 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,100 the momentum going in the first place, then it's easy to keep 474 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,760 going. But it works both ways. Right? If you're used to making 475 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,300 those grandiose plans and weeks months past no action, it's 476 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:12,120 easier to stay on that track. But if you're doing what you're 477 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:16,860 suggesting there of moving fast, testing, failing, adjusting, 478 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,020 then it's easier just keep that, that ball rolling, and keep on 479 00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:23,900 in that direction. And for some of us, it might be a wake of a 480 00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:27,020 call, right? Especially, as you said, there's a lot of shakeups 481 00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:30,260 these days with working from home and some businesses going 482 00:26:30,260 --> 00:26:33,320 away, new businesses coming up. So maybe this is the perfect 483 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,280 time for us to focus on growth hacking. And especially if 484 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,620 people out there have been saying, well, all these other 485 00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:42,580 companies are successful or doing these wild, crazy things. 486 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:45,220 Why not? Me? Maybe it's because you've been reading the wrong 487 00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:48,940 information, not focusing on growth hacking specifically, and 488 00:26:48,940 --> 00:26:52,000 looking in the wrong places. So we want everyone to be looking 489 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,180 at the right places where they want to be looking and so as far 490 00:26:55,180 --> 00:26:58,720 as the people that that need this, is it every type of 491 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,200 business? Is it one type of business, like who? Who's the 492 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,620 kind of person that should be checking out you, your book, 493 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,320 your websites? How do we know if we're the right fit here? 494 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,940 Jim Huffman: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. I think anyone 495 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,300 that you know has an organization where that they 496 00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:19,500 want to embrace, like breaking through the norm and doing 497 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:22,280 something different, and like this idea of testing and 498 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,700 learning and iteration, and you believe you can have a big 499 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:28,880 impact on digital channels, go for it. I mean, definitely any 500 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,600 like consumer facing companies or B to B companies that can 501 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,400 scale up through lead generation or through like SaaS acquisition 502 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,200 strategies. I mean some of the like the more sales heavy 503 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,700 businesses might not benefit as much, but I don't know. Maybe 504 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,880 I'm biased, but I think it's pretty applicable to anybody. 505 00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:53,140 Robert Plank: Okay, and so, having said that, how do we get 506 00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:56,920 your book and how do we find out about you and your company? And 507 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,420 how do we take the next step here? 508 00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:01,500 Jim Huffman: Cool. Yeah, so my books the growth marketers 509 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,860 playbook. It's growth markersplaybook.com, it's also 510 00:28:04,860 --> 00:28:08,940 on Amazon. So that's a resource. You know, I've done quite a bit 511 00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:12,480 of like teaching and lecturing, and I had like 500 slides of 512 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,660 stuff after, like, just teaching people, and I really started to 513 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:19,500 see what people help people and what didn't. I kind of put that 514 00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:23,120 in a book. So that's there. Our website is growth hit.com as a 515 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,540 growth marketing consultancy. My email is just Jim at growth 516 00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:30,860 hit.com and then I'm on Twitter. I kind of tweet about this stuff 517 00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:34,220 and the occasional baby photo. So yeah, and that's a Jim W 518 00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:35,180 Huffman on Twitter. 519 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:38,300 Robert Plank: Fantastic. And Avenue baby too. And as you 520 00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:44,440 know, baby photos, instant likes right 10 to 50, at least. I 521 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,600 mean, what? Why wouldn't you keep on going with that 522 00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:48,639 Jim Huffman: conversion rate? Low hanging fruit? Yeah, 523 00:28:48,639 --> 00:28:50,619 absolutely. And you wonder if 524 00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:52,600 Robert Plank: there's some amount of like, Jab, Jab, Right 525 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,660 Hook in there, if you have the if you please, the Twitter's 526 00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:59,800 algorithm, plus you get those people watching you, those hyper 527 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,060 responsive people trained to view you and like you, then 528 00:29:03,180 --> 00:29:05,580 maybe you can sneak some marketing in there. Who knows, 529 00:29:05,580 --> 00:29:06,060 right? 530 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,000 Jim Huffman: Yeah, no, I totally agree. Baby photo, babies and 531 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,040 puppies, they work every time, yeah, 532 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:13,440 Robert Plank: yeah, give the people what they want. And we 533 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,160 said that. So to reiterate, those websites, that is the 534 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,040 growth marketersplaybook.com to get that on Amazon. And I mean, 535 00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:24,740 in this day and age, there's always time to be reading, 536 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:28,400 right? Either listen to it in audiobook form, or find just a 537 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,820 few minutes every day and just knock out 10 or 20 pages while 538 00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:35,060 you're relaxing. It. It's bread better for your brain than 539 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,660 watching TV. The growth marketers playbook.com, and then 540 00:29:38,660 --> 00:29:43,000 that company, that agency, is growth hit.com and if you want 541 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,820 to contact Jim personally and say you did a great job on the 542 00:29:45,820 --> 00:29:49,120 podcast interview, or I have some more questions, or do you 543 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,180 think that your business is a right fit to consult with me and 544 00:29:52,180 --> 00:29:56,800 my my E commerce brand or my startup, then Jim at growth 545 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:02,040 hit.com is the email address and growth hit. Com is the place to 546 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,640 check out Jim and his company and find out what he's up to as 547 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,240 we finally wrap up wind down, any final parting words of 548 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,080 advice here, Jim, 549 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,200 Jim Huffman: no, just have a bias towards action. Do, do 550 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,440 stuff. Don't be afraid to to fail and mess up. But no, 551 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,900 Robert, thanks for having me on. Man, this is fun. 552 00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:21,380 Robert Plank: Glad to have you have a bias towards action that 553 00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:24,500 should be a bumper sticker or a poster on the wall or something, 554 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,900 Jim Huffman: right? Yeah, there we go. Let's own that, 555 00:30:27,380 --> 00:30:29,840 Robert Plank: all right, and put it on E commerce and scale it to 556 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,100 the moon. There we 557 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:32,180 Jim Huffman: go. Boom. I.