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Robert Plank: Hey everyone, and
welcome back to the marketer of

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the day podcast. We're here with
Susan shorts, who is a

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leadership and management coach.
She has speaker, she's an

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author, she equips expert
professionals who are moving

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into manager and partner tracks
to develop the necessary skills

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to build better relationships
and communicate effectively,

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we're going to hear all about
leadership, emotional

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intelligence, how to use the
tools at our disposal to drive

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organizational change, and
technology transformation, and

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so much more, Susan, glad to be
talking to you. I'm glad to be

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here. Thanks for inviting me,
Robert. You're very welcome. And

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thank you for showing up. And
I've heard this term emotional

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intelligence for probably less
five or six years now. And it's

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one of those things where so
much time has passed. At this

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point, I'm afraid to even ask
exactly what it is for fear

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looking stupid. I feel like I
sort of kind of have an idea,

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but this term emotional
intelligence, and what the heck

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is it? And why is it so
important?

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Unknown: Well, frankly,
emotional intelligence can be

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interpreted in a variety of
ways. There are some people who

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speak about emotional
intelligence as your deep down

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inner core, and truly being in
touch with yourself. And then

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where I look at emotional
intelligence is is how you react

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to external, the external
situation, and how people are

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behaving, and then the situation
around you. So it's almost like

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saying it depends. And I so I
think of it as an external tool,

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that you do need to reflect on
some of your beliefs, and how

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you want to come across, and how
you want to be seen, and that

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it's a combination of
observations and choices. So you

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observe somebody what they say
to you the situation, and then

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you choose how to respond. I
almost call it like a GPS, so

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that if you're speaking with
your boss, you may respond to

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something that he or she says in
one way, if someone who reports

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to you says the same thing, or
ask the same question, you might

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respond to that question in a
different way, based on the

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context, and that's when I think
about emotional intelligence,

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it's looking at the situation
and determining what is the

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appropriate behavior to what's
going on. Sometimes I like to

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call it wisdom, I really wish
that we had a different term to

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describe it. And very often
experienced people who have sort

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of learned this and gotten the
bumps and bruises do this

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Naturally, this is simply a
framework that helps you put

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this tool into action.

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Robert Plank: So we're talking
about it's it's, it's on on the

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right track, it's getting me
there because like you, it makes

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me think about times when when
I've been nervous, or I've been

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maybe more focused on on what
I'm doing, or I'm saying as

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opposed to someone else. And
maybe like the kind of like you

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said in there, like maybe
reacting the wrong way or

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worried about that. And what
also comes to mind a lot many

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times is how like, you might see
someone with a lot of power, or

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like a like a politician or
someone who's like a business

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owner really get get stressed
out angry, upset. And it makes

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you wonder like, should that
person even have any sort of

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authority if they're, if they're
not even in control of these

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emotions. And so you're saying
that there's like, like this

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wisdom, and there's this aspect
of like thinking things through,

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so that way you react
appropriately. And that's been

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on my mind the last several
years as well, just that whole

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idea of like slowing down and
reflecting and thinking about

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what you believe. So that way,
you you are clear. And that way

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if if someone has intruded on
your boundaries, or if you've

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gone past your boundaries, then
that's something to be

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corrected. But it's one of those
things where I feel like the

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more I think and talk about it,
the more vague it gets, the less

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I understand it. And so is that
a common problem just being

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unable to even really, like
physically grasp the whole

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concept?

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Unknown: Oh, absolutely. And
sometimes people will ask me a

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question in conversation, and
then they'll ask me another

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question. And it's sort of flips
my perspective, and when I'm

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trying to explain it, then I
realize I need to explain it

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differently because of where
they're coming from. So it's not

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just one time Have a tool if you
need it, because it's for you.

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And it's how you show up in the
world. I like to say it's how

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you see the world, and how other
people see you. So one of the

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traits is stress management. And
if you're being a leader, not

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only do you have to think about
how are you reacting to the

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stress, you know, we change is
the only constant we have, you

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know, the recent pandemic, 15
months ago, we all have to shift

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overnight, and the people who
report to us, or if we're

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leaders and say, a nonprofit,
and volunteers, they're all

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looking to you to see how you're
going to react. And so you have

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to kind of balance your
reactions, and at the same time,

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be a leader and try to be
confident and help guide your

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people. So they can react more
positively, and not run around

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like chickens with their head
cut off. So it's a balance. And

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one part, the model that I use
for emotional intelligence is

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called the EQ II model. And what
is what I like best I work with

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technical professionals, is that
the assessment comes back, it's

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color coded. There's a bar
chart, it's very tangible. And

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it's based on a normal curve. So
100 is the top of that normal

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curve, even though we're taught
in school that you want to

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strive for 100, that is
perfection. Some people will

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say, Well, you know, you have
more emotional intelligence and

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somebody else or do you have
enough emotional intelligence,

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and it's not a quantity. It's
not like 94 to 100 is an A, and

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93 is a B, what the normal curve
does is it gives you a score and

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100 means that 50% of the people
are less engaged in a certain

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trait. And 50% of the people are
more engaged in that trait. And

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there are 15 different traits.
So, um, let's just say that you

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are some people are very
introverted, I have a dear

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friend who is she has fabulous
writing skills, she writes the

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very best emails. So when you
look at writing, if that were to

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be one of these traits, she's
gonna be she's totally engaged.

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That's her strength. On the
other hand, she does not like to

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think on her feet, she likes to
think and reflect. And so being

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in a business meeting stresses
her out. If you could pair her

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with someone who's very engaged
to things quickly on their feet,

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that has that gift of gab. They
may, they're the ones that

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write, you know, three paragraph
emails, and you by the end of

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it, you can't figure out what
they mean. So you have to pick

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up the phone to speak with them.
Well, they want you to pick up

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the phone and speak to them.
Whereas my friend who is very,

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very introverted, she writes
great emails because she doesn't

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want them to call her back. So
you see, when you put them

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together, they balance each
other out. And when they work

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together, they will build on
each other's strengths. The

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person who's so good on their
feet, will learn how to write

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better emails. And that person
will help my friend become more

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confident speaker, an
extemporaneous speaker. And so

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what when I talk about behaviors
and choices, you get to make a

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choice. If you want to become
more engaged, it might be

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through exercises, maybe it's a
training program.

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Or you might bring somebody on
board your team who has that

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strength, because the whole is
greater than the sum of the

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parts. And so for example, it's
my friends think it's very odd.

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impulse control was one of my
least engaged traits. I think it

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was a 68. Whereas reality
testing was one of my strongest

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traits, and was maybe a 128 to
130. What that means is while I

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think about jumping off the
bridge, I evaluate the situation

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I realize it's going to hurt.
And so I choose not to jump off

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that bridge. So I can be very,
very creative. On the other

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hand, I can evaluate it to see
if there's a Return on

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Investment on this incredible
idea. And so and so that's the

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balance. Now I could practice, I
could get coaching, I could

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become more engaged in impulse
control. The question is, then I

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might not think of all these
fabulous ideas. So when I'm

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building a team, I look for
people who will ask me those

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questions, who won't just say,
Oh, she's the leader of the

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team, I can't talk with her. I
want somebody that holds me. You

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know, I don't want to hold me
hostage, but asked me those hard

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questions that are going to make
me think through it. And so

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that's how I balance things out,
is finding somebody that will

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leverage take what is not so
engaged, and they'll be the

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person to engage that lesser
engaged trait?

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Robert Plank: Does that Is that
helpful? It does. And it makes

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me think about a couple of
things that happened with this

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whole like psychological testing
is that you sometimes hear about

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the the tendency to like
bastardize, the tool and use it

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for the wrong purpose and to
say, everyone needs to take a

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personality test, and we're only
going to hire this personality

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type. And then you wind up with
a lot of sameness. So this is

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great thinking in terms of the
pieces of a team and pairing

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people off. And then because you
also come across that, that idea

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of Okay, you have strengths and
weaknesses, and do you work on

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your weaknesses or work on your
strengths, right, and it's like,

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well, that working on the
strengths it seems to be that's

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maybe like what you should be
doing or what you should be

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maybe consciously or short term
doing. And then weaknesses are

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still things to be improved. But
maybe that's more slow going.

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And maybe that's more of like a
teamwork issue where you pair

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instead of trying to work on
your weaknesses by yourself, you

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pair up with someone who has
strengths where your weaknesses

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are, and then that way, maybe it
happens kind of automatically on

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its own, without you having to
go through things, the

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frustrating way, the hard way,
at least that's those are the

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things that come to mind when we
talk about this,

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Unknown: right. And some of
those people that you spoke

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about, maybe they shouldn't be
leaders, which a lot of us think

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I'm sure we've all worked for
managers who were like holy

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smokes, and they got promoted,
because they were so smart. They

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were so expert in their field,
they got fives, they were top

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performers, they got promoted
for their expertise. Nobody

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thought about their people
management skills, what were

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their skills, that were able to
engage and motivate people. And

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it's not bad, those are all
skills that can be practiced. I

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don't necessarily want to say
learned because I believe

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everybody has it within them, if
they, you know, have the

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opportunity to pull them out and
to practice. And you know,

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you're absolutely right. And
leadership is not a solo sport.

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A lot of people think that when
they have the term manager, that

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they're they're all by their
lonesome. And they're not, their

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strength is coming from giving
confidence to their team,

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bringing them together to
collaborate. And then those

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people on the team, you have
their back, and they're going to

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have your back, you know, when a
project explodes, they may not

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wait and say, oh, Susan's in a
meeting, we can't do anything

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till Susan gets out of the
meeting. Hopefully, they're

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involved enough, if there are
times where they need to come

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and yank the manager out,
because it is that explosive.

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But what's if they have
confidence in the ownership,

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they could start trying to
resolve the problem. So by the

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time I got out of the meeting,
it might have been fixed

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already. Or they would have gone
through some of the analysis.

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And when I got out, you know, I
could respect and applaud them

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for getting from point A to B
and together we could get to see

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and the resolution. And so
that's where really activating

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and trying to bring people
together knowing the strengths

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of your team is also very, very
helpful.

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Robert Plank: And you hear about
that a lot that the whole Peter

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Principle concept of being so
good at your job that you get

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promoted, but then you're out of
your element and you don't have

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these necessary skills in order
to manage your team and this

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whole concept you're talking
about of letting letting your

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team run with it and and take
risks and solve problems and

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being proactive that has been on
my mind these last couple of

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months because I've been
building a team and I'm like a

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remote team of workers and I've
gone through kind of all the

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maybe the the growing pains the
hurt of like having turnover or

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like how This person or butting
heads and feeling almost at

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first, like, it's more work
managing them than doing the job

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for them. But then we got past
it. And now we're kind of in the

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stage of having a team of people
and having one person, run them,

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and then report to me. And then
it's gotten to the point where

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it's almost a little bit scary,
because things are happening on

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their own. And one or two of
these people are like making

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special documents and going in,
like talking to this customer

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and things are happening. And
it's, it's, it's kind of a

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double edged sword, right?
Because things are happening

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without me knowing. And then
things are happening without me

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knowing right, but both in the
good and the bad way. So do you

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have any any advice about that
as far as like doing it right?

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Or like growing your team or, or
just kind of managing the

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uncertainty of other people just
having fun and going at it, any

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ideas there? Who

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Unknown: you have been through a
huge experience, congratulations

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on coming out, you know, on the
other side, because change is

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hard. And you hit the nail on
the head right away is because

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it would be easier and faster if
you just did it yourself. On the

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other end, do you have other
work that needs to be done as

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you're building your business
and, you know, contributing to

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the success? The top line and
bottom line success?

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Robert Plank: Always, there's
always more work to be done.

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Unknown: Yeah. So as you're, and
that is great that you develop

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them and given them the
confidence to make those

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decisions that are, you know,
within the realm of their skill

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set and responsibility, and that
you have the communications

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channel that encouraged this
them to come forward. So I think

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there's a couple of steps one is
keeping your eye on the mission,

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if you understand what is your
purpose, you know, if your

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purpose is to make the very best
widget possible, if everybody

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within your organization, that's
their same mission, and you

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might have several workgroups
that have different functions

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that integrate, and get to that
mission to make that very best

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widget possible. The key is to
help each of the working teams

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recognize and understand how
they fit in, where their

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function contributes, and also
to understand what the other

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teams do, and how they can
communicate. So again, they can

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integrate their efforts, not
duplicate them and not let the

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ball drop. And that way they're
all knowing. So when something

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happens, they recognize where
it's another team's function or

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responsibility, and they have
exactly what you've created, is

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the safe space to pick up the
phone or send an email or a text

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and say, This isn't right, how
can we fix it? You know, it's,

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we need your expertise. And so I
think the best thing people can

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do is to listen, to under
Listen, to understand, not

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listen to speak. And so
listening to speak is where you

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spend that time thinking about
what you're going to say to

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react to them, as opposed to
listening to understand and gain

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clarification, asking a few
questions to go a little bit

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deeper. And then you could even
ask more questions for the

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person who brought you the
challenge to even possibly work

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it out for themselves. I had one
manager I went to her. And I had

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a challenge. Her name was
Margaret. I said Margaret, you

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know, what should I do? And she
looked at me and she said,

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Susan, this is your problem, not
my problem. Go back, think about

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two or three solutions, bring
them back to me. And then we can

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discuss the pros and cons of
each of your solutions. And I

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think I'm wasn't happy at the
time. I just wanted somebody to

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tell me what to do. And she
pushed me. And she taught me a

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really valuable lesson that I
had power. I was smart enough

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and creative enough to think
about what were possible

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solutions. And so by giving your
team that confidence and pushing

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them and I'm sure you probably
Ground your teeth a little bit

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and sprees, that stress ball as
you were doing it. Not because

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they weren't capable, but
because it wasn't a natural

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strategy for you to pursue. It
wasn't a natural behavior is, am

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I guessing? Right?

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Robert Plank: Yeah. And it's
like, like we said before there

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was the the first growing pains
of like the day to day, it would

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be like doing more work managing
them. But now sometimes there

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are little fires that get
started. And I feel like

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sometimes, like half my day or
all of my day is sometimes spent

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on solving their problem. And so
what you're saying here is

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there's there's all kinds of
little strategies where you can

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say, well, they have a problem,
and instead of you solving it

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for them, are you doing their
job for them? You say, Come back

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to me with a couple of
solutions. And then we'll we'll

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talk about that. And so they're
like, they almost like solve the

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problem for you like, it's, this
is starting to make sense as far

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as the like removing yourself.
And as far as like giving them

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some extra freedom, some extra
leeway to do like, kind of grow,

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grow themselves. And I like also
how you said, well get them

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involved in the big picture,
right? Like you, you have the

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mission, and then you have these
workgroups and tell the people

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in the workgroups what the
mission is, but then also what

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part of the team they are and
what part of the other teams

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are. I mean, it's a lot of it
seems counterintuitive, but it

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all feels like a step in the
right direction. And as you're

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explaining all of these these
things that I mean, it really

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requires like a lot of like
abstract thinking, right? But it

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seems like the alternative is to
try to do it all yourself, which

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there's only 24 hours in the
day, you can't scale. So it's

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either that it's like two,
there's two options, right?

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There's either work your tail
off, and just trying to do do

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the work of 50 people or do some
of this more abstract thinking

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and do some of this more like
careful listening and telling

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them like letting them make
their own mistakes, and kind of

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getting things to where they
need to be like, it's it's a

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really heavy, deep thoughts
here. But I think it's something

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that we all need to be thinking
about. And correct me if I'm

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wrong here. But it seems like
this is a thing that we need to

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maybe be always revisiting and
always thinking about, because

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if we just think about it once
and then say, that's great, I

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wrote my plan, I put it aside,
that doesn't help anyone. So it

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seems like it feels like there's
like constantly having to

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revisit this as well.

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Unknown: Because things are
going to change, your business

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purpose will change technology
will change. So how your how

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your process, you know, when
technology changes, or there's

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some other external happening,
that causes things to change.

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And you it is it's sort of, you
know, wash, rinse, repeat. And

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one, and it's very, that's why I
think of it as something very

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practical. Because I was working
with one young manager before,

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and there was a rift between
sales and the accounting

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department. And it turned out
the rift was not the people

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involved, they were all good
people wanting to do their job.

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the tough part was management
made the metric different for

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each one. So if sales, how
sales, their competitive edge

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was if they allowed people who
purchased their product, to pay

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a 90 or 120 days, that was their
competitive edge. So they would

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sell something with a 90 day
payment plan, you know, gap, the

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accounting people or got their
bonus if they were able to

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collect the money in 60 days. So
if the sales folks promised the

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client 90 days, then the
accountants never had the

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opportunity to get their bonus.
Whereas if the accounting

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manager stuck to their guns and
said it's got to be 60 days

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payment, the salespeople
wouldn't make the sale. And so

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when management could fix and
make the metrics complimentary,

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or at least able to let each
group perform at their best, and

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moving towards metrics that were
parallel, if not integrated,

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then they're not fighting. And
if you're not fighting, you're

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going to be engaged and become
solution solvers. So I can see

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where each person said, Oh, this
is our performance indicator.

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This is when we're doing a great
job. Only they didn't think

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about how the two departments
work together. Now the end of

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the story is this young manager
went back, had some

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conversations, they made things
work, and he got promoted. To

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have a be in charge of a partner
program across a whole

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continent. So that's, I mean, it
is a small company. But it was a

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really powerful role. And they,
you know, offered it to him

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because they saw how creative he
could be.

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Robert Plank: And that that
makes a lot of sense, as far as

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sometimes one little piece in
the system is broken, or is at

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odds. And that's a terrible
place to be when, when you're

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each pulling the rope in
opposite directions and getting

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getting nowhere. It's worse than
that having no help, right? It's

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like you'd rather both people
are pulling in the same

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direction. But if you're just
doing it by yourself, that's

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even worse. But then if
someone's at odds with you,

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which we've all been there in
some form or another in work, or

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in our business, as far as
someone else has a different

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objective that then you and it's
not working. I mean, that's,

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that's something to definitely
be avoided. And you've given us

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a lot to think about here. So
what is the next step? If

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someone out there says, I'm
really interested in this kind

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of team building system
building, deal, like dealing

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with employees and everything
like that? And they say, shoot,

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Susan Schwartz seems super
smart, and the person that I

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need to be talking to following
on social media, buying her book

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on her website, everything,
what's the next step? How do

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people continue the conversation
with you?

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Unknown: Well, they can connect
with me over LinkedIn. And my

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email is SGS at the River
Bridge, group.com Ri, ve er, Dir

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ch group.com, I named my company
for that it's a tree on the East

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Coast, and the bark falls away.
And so I wanted a name that

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represented my company, so that
it's always evolving, people are

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evolving, organizations are
evolving. And as that bark pulls

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away, you you have something new
to work with. And it starts out

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as a teeny little sapling, I
have one in my front yard. And

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after 10 years or so, it had
this huge trunk. And I couldn't

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00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:16,230
believe I had a hold it
together, there were three

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00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:20,700
trunks, tiny little spindles, we
had a black, you know, plastic

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00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:26,430
heavy wire, keeping it together
as a baby tree. And pretty soon

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00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:31,470
that Trump was like 12 inches in
diameter. And and that's, you

387
00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:35,820
know, how companies grow, you
start out new, just exactly what

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you said, you're trying to
figure things out your team is

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00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:42,060
building, you're building your
team, you're going through the,

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00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:47,340
you know, forming, storming,
norming performing phases. And

391
00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:51,180
it's it's really exciting as
their teams has their roots

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00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:56,490
expand, and their branches get
stronger and, and more steady,

393
00:27:56,490 --> 00:27:58,140
you've got a strong foundation.

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Robert Plank: I like that
metaphor. As you said in the

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beginning, we can count on
change. And that's basically the

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only thing we can count on that
things will not stay the same.

397
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And it seems to be up to us. If
that changes for the better or

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00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:13,500
for worse, we can either have
growth, we can have decay, we

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00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,290
can have a toxic environment, or
we can have something that

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improves the world. And so if
everyone out there who is

401
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,380
watching or listening, if this
interests you, if you want to

402
00:28:22,410 --> 00:28:26,550
see what Susan has going on with
organizational change with

403
00:28:26,550 --> 00:28:29,280
emotional intelligence and
everything else involved in that

404
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,270
and related to that, follow her
on LinkedIn that is su

405
00:28:33,270 --> 00:28:42,660
SANSCHWARTZ, z and SGS at river
birch group calm as we wrap up,

406
00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:46,140
wrap up wind down here. Susan,
do you have any final parting

407
00:28:46,140 --> 00:28:48,840
words of advice, any final
thoughts as we close the book on

408
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,350
this?

409
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Unknown: I again, emotional
intelligence is a practical

410
00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:58,950
tool. And it's reflecting it's
reflecting on yourself, and

411
00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:03,600
thinking about how you behaved
previously, how you would like

412
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,790
to behave. And then walking
through just those steps. It's

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00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:14,220
practice. And the more you
practice, the quicker the more

414
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:18,270
natural it becomes. And it's
it's a tool that you focus

415
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:23,100
outside yourself. And it enables
you to consider how you're

416
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:28,080
behaving. Look at what other
people are saying and how

417
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,590
they're behaving and maybe
explore their intention. And

418
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:35,520
then you're able to make strong
choices to build those

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00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,640
collaborative constructive teams
and