1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:04,740 Robert Plank: Welcome back to the podcast. We are here with 2 00:00:04,740 --> 00:00:08,850 return guest, Dr. Mark Gholston, MD faap. 3 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:11,820 And we're going to be talking today about how to just listen, 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,090 we're going to be talking about the Michelangelo mindset. 5 00:00:15,090 --> 00:00:19,200 And just to jump off here is the Michelangelo mindset is the 6 00:00:19,230 --> 00:00:22,590 apple of personal and professional development. And it 7 00:00:22,590 --> 00:00:27,300 helps you personally, imagine, see and realize the success, the 8 00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:31,260 happiness and the fulfillment in your future by carving away 9 00:00:31,260 --> 00:00:35,400 everything that isn't there and isn't serving you just as 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,060 Michelangelo did with the statue of David in a block of marble. 11 00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:43,770 Now, Dr. Mark is also the host of my wake up call podcast. He's 12 00:00:43,770 --> 00:00:47,910 the co author of nine books, including just listen, he has so 13 00:00:47,910 --> 00:00:51,720 much going on, he is changing the world even today after 50 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,520 years. Dr. Mark, glad to have you back. 15 00:00:54,230 --> 00:00:57,350 Mark Goulston: Well, I'm glad to be back and I am in a rush to 16 00:00:57,350 --> 00:01:02,090 change the world and, and thank you for the introduction. And by 17 00:01:02,090 --> 00:01:05,030 the way, I'm going to put up a QR code in case people want to 18 00:01:05,030 --> 00:01:08,090 contact me. So you can just zoom in, that'll take you to my 19 00:01:08,090 --> 00:01:09,110 LinkedIn profile. 20 00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:12,800 But I'll share something with you that maybe your listeners 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,670 and viewers be interested in all my life, I've been looking for 22 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:21,320 an umbrella, under which everything I've ever done would 23 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:26,360 fit in the umbrella is something I call our company is the 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,130 Michelangelo mindset. 25 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:33,280 And so what that's about is where it comes from is 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,590 Michelangelo sculpted the statue of David and all these piratas 27 00:01:39,100 --> 00:01:43,840 by seeing the sculpture, and then just carving away 28 00:01:43,870 --> 00:01:49,840 everything that wasn't it until he set it free. And you know, 29 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:52,960 but your listeners may not know I was a suicide prevention 30 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,760 specialist for 25 years, none of my patients died by suicide. And 31 00:01:58,090 --> 00:02:03,640 what I realized I did is I found the hope inside their 32 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:09,730 hopelessness. They couldn't see it. But I kept carving away 33 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,610 everything else until they felt it. And when they felt hopeful, 34 00:02:16,930 --> 00:02:21,130 hopeful means looks like I have a future. They let go of being 35 00:02:21,130 --> 00:02:24,520 suicidal, if that makes sense. 36 00:02:25,020 --> 00:02:28,350 And since this is a Marketing Show, I'll share something that 37 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:33,720 we actually talked about in the last show. And if if you're into 38 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:40,260 marketing, and you want to connect, hold and get your 39 00:02:40,260 --> 00:02:44,700 market to take action, the statue of David that you're 40 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:49,050 trying to create everywhere, with your customers, your 41 00:02:49,050 --> 00:02:53,850 clients, your investors, your people, and top talent you're 42 00:02:53,850 --> 00:02:58,470 trying to poach from your competitor. What you want to 43 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,730 clear away from is the experience of it's now reduced. 44 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,990 Wow. Huh? Yes. 45 00:03:08,370 --> 00:03:13,440 Why those because and look at your website. Look at your 46 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,030 marketing materials. If you're not triggering Wow, wow is I 47 00:03:18,030 --> 00:03:22,590 can't believe what I just saw, heard or read. So it breaks 48 00:03:22,590 --> 00:03:26,790 through add breaks through being on the spectrum. It breaks 49 00:03:26,790 --> 00:03:32,280 through text messaging. And you know, you've created while when 50 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,000 you're doing a presentation, and people start elbowing each other 51 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,110 and saying, What did he say? What did she say? Or if you're 52 00:03:40,110 --> 00:03:42,330 speaking to someone who's a little bit distracted, they say, 53 00:03:42,330 --> 00:03:46,200 Can you repeat that again? So Wow, is something that breaks 54 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,850 through all the clutter? Hmm. Is it not only breaks through the 55 00:03:50,850 --> 00:03:54,180 clutter? It's something so powerful, you want to think 56 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:54,780 about it. 57 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,560 And then when you think about it, and you come up with what 58 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,960 you can do with it, you go yes. And and you may know and your 59 00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:06,840 listeners and viewers don't know for a year and a half I played 60 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,280 Steve Jobs coming back from the dead. I played him with the 61 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,720 turtleneck. I had the glasses on I had the 501 jeans I have the 62 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,830 new bow tie the whole uniform. And it was covering him from 63 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:26,280 1996 to 2007 when he introduced the iPhone, but the whole reason 64 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:31,830 for the whole presentation was to show my audiences 65 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:36,930 This is a video. And if you look up Xerox PARC, National 66 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:42,690 Geographic Steve Jobs, you will see this dramatization of Steve 67 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:47,370 Jobs going to Xerox PARC and laying his eyes on the graphical 68 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:51,270 user interface in the mouse. And within two and a quarter 69 00:04:51,270 --> 00:04:53,970 minutes, I'm telling you, you look at the expression on the 70 00:04:53,970 --> 00:04:58,890 actor's face. And he's like this first. smartest guy in the room. 71 00:04:58,890 --> 00:05:03,420 cynical The screen goes on with the mouse and he leans in like 72 00:05:03,420 --> 00:05:08,730 this. And he says to the technician, Can I try it? 73 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:15,690 And then as he steps down to try it, he starts to sweat. That's 74 00:05:15,690 --> 00:05:20,910 the while. And he presses his index finger on the mouse. And 75 00:05:20,910 --> 00:05:24,540 suddenly icons Come on the screen. And in that little video 76 00:05:24,540 --> 00:05:30,180 clip, Steve Wozniak comments, he said, When Steve did that, he 77 00:05:30,180 --> 00:05:33,480 looked at me that was the Huh, what do you think of this was 78 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,830 niak. And I told Steve, once they go there, they're not going 79 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:42,600 back. And then he plays around with the mouse in the graphical 80 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:43,770 user interface. 81 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:47,260 And then Walter Isaacson comes on and says they didn't know 82 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:51,910 what to do with this at Xerox. But Steve Jobs knew they had 83 00:05:51,910 --> 00:05:54,760 something and he went back to Apple and they created the 84 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,830 Macintosh. Why am I saying this? If you're in marketing, if you 85 00:05:59,830 --> 00:06:06,400 don't create Wow, hmm. Yes. What you're triggering is there, No, 86 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,380 thanks. Nevermind. 87 00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:13,870 And so look at your website, look at your copy and your copy 88 00:06:13,870 --> 00:06:18,490 editing. Look at how you present anything. And if you don't 89 00:06:18,490 --> 00:06:24,790 trigger while, yes, fix it. Recently, I'm developing course 90 00:06:24,790 --> 00:06:27,850 freight international accelerator, every three months 91 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:34,120 is 15 to 20. startups. And one of the things I'm coaching them 92 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,480 on. And again, you want to get your audience where they're 93 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,960 coming from, as opposed to trying to convince them, you 94 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,080 might want to write this down. Because if you don't, you'll 95 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:44,740 choke on it. 96 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:53,930 Never educate or inspire an investor. It's wasted unless 97 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:57,890 they request it. And what I'm coaching these startups when 98 00:06:57,890 --> 00:07:02,360 they pitch to investors, investors hear ideas all day 99 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,660 long. They don't even know what the ideas are, you think your 100 00:07:05,660 --> 00:07:10,250 idea is going to change the world, they don't care. What you 101 00:07:10,250 --> 00:07:14,150 need to lead, when you're pitching to investors, you have 102 00:07:14,150 --> 00:07:19,010 your cover slide shows your company. Slide two is the ROI 103 00:07:19,010 --> 00:07:23,330 after one year, slide three is the ROI after three years, slide 104 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,420 four is the ROI after five years, because that's what the 105 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:34,430 investor is thinking about. Because if you're a startup, you 106 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:37,310 don't get the head of the investment from I mean, those 107 00:07:37,310 --> 00:07:41,000 people who might be in their 60s or 70s, they might be curious if 108 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,900 you had a a startup that would change the world because they 109 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:45,770 don't need money. 110 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,900 But young investors who are sent out to check out your startup 111 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,620 and hear your pitch, what their what they have to go back is 112 00:07:54,620 --> 00:07:59,780 make a case to their boss, for how your company's going to do a 113 00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:04,310 great ROI at one three and five years. And then of course, what 114 00:08:04,310 --> 00:08:08,510 they want to know is how you're going to make that happen. So 115 00:08:08,510 --> 00:08:11,510 what follows those slides is how are you going to make it happen? 116 00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:14,600 That's what they care about. And then if you're lucky, they might 117 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,600 be curious about what your company is about. But do you 118 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:23,030 follow them saying you need to carve away what's on your client 119 00:08:23,030 --> 00:08:27,260 or customers mind what's most important to them. And you need 120 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:32,120 to start from that. As opposed to trying to convince them I 121 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:33,770 wonderful what you have is. 122 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:37,290 Robert Plank: And I mean, this is huge. This is mind blowing. 123 00:08:37,290 --> 00:08:40,260 But it's also like one of the most simplest things and what 124 00:08:40,260 --> 00:08:43,200 I'm hearing from you is that it's really easy to be barking 125 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,900 up the wrong tree. Like you said, there's investors, they 126 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:49,380 want this and they want this and if you're saying you don't like 127 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:51,300 you're like saying Well don't worry about that. Here's all 128 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:53,820 these other things that I think you should know about. You're 129 00:08:53,820 --> 00:08:57,150 like you're hitting a brick wall and and it makes a lot of sense 130 00:08:57,150 --> 00:09:00,750 that you're you're kind of like role model or person you're 131 00:09:00,750 --> 00:09:04,230 possessing here is Steve Jobs, because I mean, as far as I'm 132 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:07,800 concerned, like the his one trick was just from thing, 133 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,770 seeing what could be removed, and he's still a genius about 134 00:09:10,750 --> 00:09:13,630 He's still like thought of things that no one no one even 135 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:10,830 it. 136 00:09:13,630 --> 00:09:16,960 came to mind. But like even you know, iPhone there, there's no, 137 00:09:17,050 --> 00:09:21,820 there's no buttons on it, right. And even like with the Mac, even 138 00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:25,210 those early ones, there was no eject button on the floppy disk, 139 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,360 the mouse, everyone else had two or three buttons, he just had 140 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,330 one button. And now there's the Magic Mouse with zero buttons 141 00:09:31,330 --> 00:09:35,200 and like you see all these innovations like my Roku TV 142 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:37,570 doesn't even have a power button. There's only a few 143 00:09:37,570 --> 00:09:40,570 buttons on it where everyone else just tries to add features. 144 00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:44,350 And even like with the Xerox PARC same idea, they had this 145 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,040 incredible tool, but they just they didn't know how to use it. 146 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,850 They didn't know what to do with it. And this is a concept that 147 00:09:52,210 --> 00:09:56,080 it's been more and more on my mind as I get more into my later 148 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:56,650 years. 149 00:09:56,710 --> 00:10:00,070 I mean not not that later years but like late 30s were what If 150 00:10:00,070 --> 00:10:03,430 I'm on a podcast like like with like you, I just kind of sit and 151 00:10:03,430 --> 00:10:06,490 I listen, I just listened to use your branding, right? I just 152 00:10:06,490 --> 00:10:10,300 kind of leave, leave room debris leave the space. And I mean, you 153 00:10:10,300 --> 00:10:14,470 hear about this, like all in life, like, if you're on a hot 154 00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:17,500 first date, don't try to impress her and keep saying all these 155 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:21,220 things. Just listen, just see where things go. And it seems 156 00:10:21,220 --> 00:10:25,390 like a lot more of a way to struggle less, right? It seems 157 00:10:25,390 --> 00:10:29,170 like a more natural way to go about things of like you said, 158 00:10:29,170 --> 00:10:32,080 instead of adding instead of adding to the confusion, ship 159 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,890 away, subtract what doesn't belong there, just like 160 00:10:35,890 --> 00:10:36,790 Michelangelo? 161 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:39,750 Mark Goulston: Absolutely, you know, you're reminding me when I 162 00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:44,580 played Steve Jobs when I played him returning from the dead. One 163 00:10:44,580 --> 00:10:48,360 of the high points of my presentation is when I did my 164 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,410 version of his introducing the iPhone. And I think you'll 165 00:10:52,410 --> 00:10:55,380 remember it, everybody remembers it, but talk about removing 166 00:10:55,590 --> 00:11:00,120 clutter. What did he say? It's an internet connecting device. 167 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:05,610 It's an iPod. It's a telephone. It's an internet connecting 168 00:11:05,610 --> 00:11:09,120 device. It's an iPod. It's a telephone. He said it another 169 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,140 time. And then he said, introducing the iPhone. 170 00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:17,790 Robert Plank: And yeah, like and he tricked us and said, here's 171 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:20,670 this three things. And they and they all merge into one. And 172 00:11:20,670 --> 00:11:23,880 you're all you're reminding me of this, this power of three 173 00:11:24,060 --> 00:11:28,680 thing, even how with your new framework with the Wow, the him 174 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:32,160 and the yes is just these three steps. You've clearly no, 175 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:36,240 there's the beginning, where you kind of activate the like the 176 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,210 emotion, the curiosity, the middle where you kind of 177 00:11:39,210 --> 00:11:42,030 activate like the logics, and now you're dealing with emotion 178 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:45,300 plus logic. at the ends, we get to the Yes, there's a decision 179 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:49,080 making, but it's like instead of even four is to me just keep it 180 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,410 at three, just beginning middle end, you make it so simple. 181 00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:54,940 Mark Goulston: Yeah. And you and you were just mentioning about 182 00:11:54,940 --> 00:12:00,070 if you're in your late 30s. And you're dating, you know, I don't 183 00:12:00,070 --> 00:12:04,270 mean this to be sexist. But you know, women are still often 184 00:12:04,270 --> 00:12:08,260 looking for security in a marriage. I mean, one of the 185 00:12:08,260 --> 00:12:13,450 reasons people get married is, is it gives the usually gives 186 00:12:13,450 --> 00:12:18,130 the woman some security. But what they're listening for, when 187 00:12:18,190 --> 00:12:21,580 it's later on, maybe when you're younger, they're looking for 188 00:12:21,730 --> 00:12:26,260 what is sexy, what is something that's exciting, but what 189 00:12:26,260 --> 00:12:33,610 they're listening for are, are you secure? Are you stable, IU 190 00:12:33,730 --> 00:12:36,910 predictable, they want to lock you in, but they want to build a 191 00:12:36,910 --> 00:12:38,110 life together with you. 192 00:12:39,050 --> 00:12:44,780 And which brings me also to using the Michelangelo mindset 193 00:12:44,810 --> 00:12:49,880 in communication. almost two years ago, I spoke in Moscow, I 194 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,360 had a headline with Daniel Kahneman. He wrote Thinking Fast 195 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,550 and Slow Nobel Prize winner. And I headline because that book 196 00:12:58,550 --> 00:13:03,560 behind me just listen, is in 28 languages and became the top 197 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:08,270 book on listening in the world. And here's what I did with the 198 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:12,140 with the audience in Moscow. And this was ewz. And it was called, 199 00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:14,960 change everything you know about communication, that was the 200 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:15,920 title of my talk. 201 00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:21,230 And so see if you can feel the Michaelangelo mindset drilling 202 00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:26,600 into them, what I said to them, I said, if I focus on you 203 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:33,470 listening to me, I will give you bullet points. And most of them 204 00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:37,910 will work for me. But most of them won't work for you. And 205 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:40,400 you'll think to yourself, well, they'll work for him because 206 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,210 he's an expert, but they won't work for me. But if I'm 207 00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:47,840 entertaining enough, if I give you some good stories, you'll 208 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:53,030 give me your mind for an hour. If I focus on you listening to 209 00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:53,750 me, too. 210 00:13:53,570 --> 00:13:57,890 Here's the Michelangelo mindset. And I switch the tone of my 211 00:13:57,890 --> 00:14:04,430 voice from am radio thought to NPR. And I said, but if instead 212 00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:09,500 of focusing on you listening to me, and you giving me your mind 213 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:15,440 for an hour, I focused on what you're listening for. And if I 214 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,760 get what you're listening for, without you telling me if I 215 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,910 deliver on what you're listening for, without you telling me, 216 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,380 you'll give me everything. And then I said to them, and this 217 00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:31,010 you could almost use this with any audience. I said, let me see 218 00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:34,640 if I get these threes, what you're listening for. So again, 219 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,700 you can see the Michelangelo mindset just spreading away the 220 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:41,540 transactional. I'll give you bullets. You'll listen to me. 221 00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:45,650 And I said, let me see if this is what you're listening for. 222 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:50,340 You're listening for something that will help you get better 223 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:53,280 measurable results because if you get better measurable 224 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,890 results, you're going to get a raise. Then a good problem 225 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:03,000 promotion is not true da You're listening for a way to get those 226 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,970 results, that's less stressful, because you're all drinking too 227 00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:09,210 much, or eating too much of people doing it's a real mess. 228 00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:13,110 So you listening for a way to get those better results with 229 00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:18,480 less stressful, da. And then I said, finally, what you're 230 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,400 really listening for is that I can give you immediately usable, 231 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:29,490 doable by you tactics. Where you don't have to buy a book, I 232 00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:33,210 haven't written a book on this yet. You don't have to buy a 233 00:15:33,210 --> 00:15:37,620 course, I haven't made a course yet. But if I could give you 234 00:15:37,650 --> 00:15:43,170 immediately usable, doable by you tactics, that you can use 235 00:15:43,170 --> 00:15:49,620 immediately. To get better measurable results. With less 236 00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:53,820 stress, we would have been worth the money you paid to come here 237 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:57,000 and a day of your time. And they went da and I said sit down, sit 238 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,570 down, I got a presentation to make. But can you can you get a 239 00:16:00,570 --> 00:16:04,770 sense of what I'm trying to communicate is that wherever you 240 00:16:04,770 --> 00:16:09,780 are, if you can stop trying to push what you have on other 241 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:17,520 people, and let go of it. And focus on the David inside the 242 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,150 statue. 243 00:16:19,650 --> 00:16:23,250 Inside every customer and client is someone who wants to buy, 244 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,620 don't sell them. Inside every investor is someone who wants to 245 00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:33,870 give you their money. Don't come off insecure and try and push up 246 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:39,120 your great IP on them. Inside the best talent in your 247 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,960 industry, is someone who wants to work for the best company 248 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,390 where they can fully fulfill their potential. 249 00:16:47,070 --> 00:16:52,890 And inside your people are people who want to wake up every 250 00:16:52,890 --> 00:16:58,980 morning and say I can't wait to go to work. And find out what 251 00:16:58,980 --> 00:17:04,320 causes them to think that and then sculpt away everything. 252 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:10,050 That's not it. So you're kind of getting my mo here, Robert. 253 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:10,440 Yeah, 254 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,240 Robert Plank: yes. I feel like I'm getting a peek into your 255 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,650 psyche. As far as listening. We should be listening for things 256 00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:21,310 instead of listening to things. And I feel like again, once 257 00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:23,320 again, I feel like you're like reading a page out of my 258 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,440 journal. But like when I first jumped into this podcasting 259 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,410 thing, like maybe like five years ago, I was like looking 260 00:17:29,410 --> 00:17:33,490 for this answer here I was looking for the sought to solve 261 00:17:33,490 --> 00:17:37,210 the problem of going a mile a minute bullet points 262 00:17:37,210 --> 00:17:40,030 transactional and wondering why it wasn't working. 263 00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:42,970 Basically like verbal jackhammering, right? saying, 264 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,690 Here's all these things. Blimey, if I give you 100 things, maybe 265 00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:50,530 you'll pick up two and I was younger, I was immature. I 266 00:17:50,530 --> 00:17:53,770 thought that was the way to go about it. And I think that maybe 267 00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:56,440 that was was the way I learned. I just said like, well, maybe 268 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,340 I'll pick up something. But it was very, like plastic shock it 269 00:18:00,370 --> 00:18:03,580 was it was very hit or miss. And I feel like, if this was the 270 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:06,730 final episode of my podcast, it would wrap it all up, we're 271 00:18:06,730 --> 00:18:09,730 gonna keep going. But I just feel like it. This kind of 272 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,940 explains a lot of what I've been going through the last several 273 00:18:12,940 --> 00:18:17,560 years of just keep putting the fun in their presentations, 274 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,030 taking your time. 275 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:23,950 It's kind of setting the table and adding the emotion into it 276 00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:26,890 just all these things of instead of all these things I'm going to 277 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:31,510 throw at you, what would it get you? What is the result? What 278 00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:35,140 would this look like in the future. And again, when I was 279 00:18:35,140 --> 00:18:38,980 younger and didn't know what I was even doing, I felt like that 280 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:42,100 was a waste. I always felt like saying, Well, you know, when you 281 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:45,280 use this, you can get a raise, and you won't have to drink so 282 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,980 much. And all those things you mentioned, I used I used to roll 283 00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:50,920 my eyes at that. I used to say, Okay, come on, let's get to the 284 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,310 facts. But now, it makes a lot more sense to me of how 285 00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:58,240 important it is to, to kind of see the big picture and know 286 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,690 what it's leading to and be encouraged. And all those things 287 00:19:01,690 --> 00:19:05,890 that go along with it listening for things, instead of listening 288 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,800 to things I feel like with that, that kind of almost script, you 289 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,440 just said, I think that I need to go back and listen to that 290 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,140 again and again. So it gets built in because that's huge 291 00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:17,380 right there of saying, you know, I could just throw this stuff at 292 00:19:17,380 --> 00:19:21,160 you. But let's focus on what it will get you. And then we can 293 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,920 kind of take our time and go back from there. I mean, it's 294 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:24,880 huge. It's amazing. 295 00:19:25,770 --> 00:19:27,420 Mark Goulston: In fact, I'm going to give you a script 296 00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:30,870 that's a little bit comical. So I'm advising and I'm building a 297 00:19:30,870 --> 00:19:34,110 course for an international accelerator. And every three 298 00:19:34,110 --> 00:19:36,840 months I do a presentation now they want me to do a course. 299 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,490 And there's usually 15 to 20 startups from all over the 300 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:47,430 world. And one of the parts of my presentation, which they 301 00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:51,690 enjoy, and I hope you'll enjoy your listeners and viewers. It's 302 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:56,880 about how to pitch to investors, after you've run out of family 303 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,020 and friends money so family and friends are going to hold your 304 00:20:01,020 --> 00:20:05,250 feet to the fire. investors will. And so one of the things I 305 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:08,670 pointed out to them, and I think you'll get this, I say, 306 00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:13,490 How often do you pitch to an investor and they smile? And you 307 00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:16,850 think it's a yes. And at the end of your presentation, they're 308 00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:21,200 gonna say, when can we start? And it turns out to not be a 309 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,210 yes. They all rolled their eyes. That happened. Yes, yesterday. I 310 00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:31,220 say that's because the reason they're smiling is because 311 00:20:31,220 --> 00:20:34,400 within three minutes of your presentation, they know what's 312 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,210 and know. And they don't want to be rude and say, I've heard 313 00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:41,870 enough, no, because they see you put so much work into your 314 00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:45,410 PowerPoint, they don't want to be rude. So they're smiling like 315 00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:48,830 this. And what they're thinking is, I hope they don't take all 316 00:20:48,830 --> 00:20:49,310 day. 317 00:20:50,570 --> 00:20:56,420 And so here's how you turn it around. When they're smiling, 318 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,310 and I said, there's, remember investors don't smile, money's 319 00:21:01,310 --> 00:21:05,060 very serious, they have to go back and report back about if 320 00:21:05,060 --> 00:21:08,900 they found anything worth investing in. So next time, 321 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:13,880 here's the script when they smile, what you say to them, and 322 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,340 if you're watching this, you may want to take notes or play it 323 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:20,150 back. You say to them, can we pause for a moment? And then 324 00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:23,390 they get nervous? Because you caught them not wanting to be 325 00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:26,090 rude, which is why they were smiling. They're gonna they're 326 00:21:26,090 --> 00:21:29,990 gonna go What? Yeah, can we pause for a second, and suddenly 327 00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:34,910 you've disarmed them. And you say, when we started, we were 328 00:21:34,910 --> 00:21:40,220 like this, here's you with money to invest. Here's me a company 329 00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:43,610 who needs that money. And right now, we're like this, here's you 330 00:21:43,610 --> 00:21:46,970 with money to invest. And I'm a company that's not going to see 331 00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:47,870 any of that money. 332 00:21:48,860 --> 00:21:52,370 So what happened is, when we started, you were listening for 333 00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:58,940 something. And you didn't hear it? Now, we did our best to 334 00:21:58,940 --> 00:22:02,180 prepare the kind of things that you would want to hear. But 335 00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:06,920 clearly, we didn't get it, right. So in the time remaining, 336 00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:10,790 I can scrap the rest of the PowerPoint, what was it that you 337 00:22:10,790 --> 00:22:15,770 were listening or looking for? Because we might actually have 338 00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:22,580 it. And if what you tell me, we don't have, I'm in a group of 15 339 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:26,930 other companies. And I might be able to introduce to you 340 00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:31,910 companies that meet all your requirements. And I could send 341 00:22:31,910 --> 00:22:36,470 you a little bit on them. And then you could find a company 342 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:40,370 that fits what you want to invest in. Plus, I get to 343 00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:42,920 introduce them to you, they get money, they're going to be 344 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,120 grateful to me, you're going to be grateful to me, and I may 345 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:52,880 have lost your media business. But guess what? If I can make 346 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,370 that introduction, and it's successful for them and 347 00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:58,820 successful for you, and I have focused on their success and 348 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:03,020 your success, and not on my own, all of you will take my call in 349 00:23:03,020 --> 00:23:07,670 the future. So do you follow what I'm saying you have turned 350 00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:13,400 a pitch that was going nowhere into an opportunity to build a 351 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,720 relationship with an investor, and maybe two or three companies 352 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,130 that you can introduce to them. But you can you see how the what 353 00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:25,460 that pivot is like and how Michelangelo mindset that is? 354 00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:28,500 Robert Plank: Yes, and I'm getting from a lot of your your 355 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:31,290 thought process here of like turning things on their head, 356 00:23:31,290 --> 00:23:34,170 like thinking of things in reverse think going instead of 357 00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:38,280 the things that you want to say, look at it from the other side 358 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,620 of things and what they want to hear. And what you're making me 359 00:23:40,620 --> 00:23:43,110 think about is, you know, there's been so many times over 360 00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:45,840 the years when someone came to me and said, You know, I want 361 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,860 this solution. And I would you know, spend a week making a 362 00:23:49,860 --> 00:23:52,890 proposal making the dreaded bullet points, right and saying, 363 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,800 it's this price, or it could be this price. And here's all these 364 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,680 things you'll get, and then taking a week or two. And then 365 00:23:58,890 --> 00:24:02,070 by that time, they even forgot who I was. And I sent it. I get 366 00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:05,820 ghosted every time, versus now, I don't have everything quite 367 00:24:05,820 --> 00:24:09,630 figured out. But now it's more a matter of, you know, messaging 368 00:24:09,630 --> 00:24:13,500 back and forth, sometimes doing like a paid call. And just 369 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:16,200 mostly just kind of like just listening to them. And now when 370 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,530 I land some of these clients, I go in so stressed out, but I 371 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:23,400 tell myself, like, Don't talk, barely talk, just listen to what 372 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,040 they have to say. And it's like, there was a, there was an 373 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,970 episode of friends where like he like bleached his teeth and they 374 00:24:29,970 --> 00:24:32,610 glue and they glowed in the dark. And he was like on a date 375 00:24:32,610 --> 00:24:35,400 and he like, couldn't talk. And the date went super well just 376 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,160 because he didn't say anything. So like reminds me of all those 377 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,160 different things of the use. There was like kind of the old 378 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,420 way of trying so hard, and just trying to make it work and just 379 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:49,650 going through the same motions versus just just listen and 380 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,010 think about what they want. And even if it's kind of a like a 381 00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:56,160 breaking outside the box solution, which that was where 382 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,610 it's like, okay, even if I'm not a right fit, let me refer you 383 00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:03,240 and then I'll Kind of a win in the end anyway, if not even by 384 00:25:03,390 --> 00:25:06,780 kind of a numbers game. So yeah, this is huge. And we're going to 385 00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:11,730 need to transcribe and listen back to that old thing you said 386 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:14,820 a few minutes ago plus this right now. And we only have a 387 00:25:14,820 --> 00:25:18,060 few minutes left. So as we wrap up wind down here, is there 388 00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:21,420 anything you feel like fitting into this conversation that you 389 00:25:21,420 --> 00:25:24,270 think is really important that we just, we would hate 390 00:25:24,270 --> 00:25:26,640 ourselves, you and me, Dr. Mark, if we left it out 391 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:33,350 Mark Goulston: when you're interacting with anyone. And the 392 00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:37,550 Michelangelo mindset is a meta mindset, meaning it's not 393 00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:38,540 transactional. 394 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,530 One of the things you can say to anyone you're going to have a 395 00:25:42,530 --> 00:25:46,340 conversation with, it's business related. Because I have a favor 396 00:25:46,340 --> 00:25:50,690 to ask you. I'm going to ask you at the beginning of our 397 00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:56,090 conversation, what would you need to solve? What would you 398 00:25:56,090 --> 00:26:00,050 need to hear that would cause you at the end of our 399 00:26:00,050 --> 00:26:04,070 conversation, to think this was one of the most productive 400 00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:08,750 conversations I've had, I'm really excited. And I'm even 401 00:26:08,750 --> 00:26:11,270 thinking of moving forward on it. 402 00:26:12,350 --> 00:26:15,980 So I want you to give some thought to conversations you've 403 00:26:15,980 --> 00:26:21,320 had or services you've hired or products you bought. Because the 404 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,150 more you can tell me the parameters of a great product, a 405 00:26:26,150 --> 00:26:32,420 great service and a great hire. And also point out to me, the 406 00:26:32,420 --> 00:26:36,500 things you hope won't happen. All the things that were just 407 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:41,870 real negatives. I think it'll really help us tee up the 408 00:26:41,870 --> 00:26:46,010 conversation. So that maybe we have a better chance of you 409 00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:50,990 leaving excited feeling that was a great conversation, and you're 410 00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:55,670 wanting to take action going forward. As opposed to going in 411 00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:56,510 the other direction. 412 00:26:58,250 --> 00:27:00,710 Robert Plank: You make it seem so simple. And these are all 413 00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:03,830 this the these techniques you have, they all seem very, like 414 00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:08,450 smooth, honest, upfront, but also at the same time. Like, why 415 00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:10,880 doesn't Why hasn't anyone else thought of this? Why don't 416 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,630 people do this? Why don't people say, what would you rather have 417 00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:17,150 at the end? What would you rather get out of that and just 418 00:27:17,150 --> 00:27:20,330 have that information. And then that way you you can work with 419 00:27:20,330 --> 00:27:23,960 that, instead of playing that this guessing game. I mean, this 420 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,020 is huge. And I'm really understanding your thought 421 00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:28,610 process your mindset here. 422 00:27:28,610 --> 00:27:32,240 And it's also clicking with me that, you know, I think we're on 423 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,180 episode 800, something of this podcast. So I've done hundreds 424 00:27:35,180 --> 00:27:38,930 of these. And even just for me as an interviewer, what I want 425 00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:43,850 so many different times is maybe like some like encouragement, 426 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:49,880 reassurance, a fun spark of an idea to jump off on. And then 427 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,690 also at the same time, maybe just like one less worry, one 428 00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:57,230 less thing to think about. And and you're making me think of a 429 00:27:57,230 --> 00:28:00,140 lot of these podcasts, guests I've had on when I've gone and 430 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:03,950 looked at their websites, I think the big common factor with 431 00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:07,160 all of them, as you can almost tell they've looked at and 432 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,210 they've refined their website hundreds of times, and I always 433 00:28:11,210 --> 00:28:14,690 feel bad because I feel like I haven't adjusted my website just 434 00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:18,080 right. Just enough, but I go and I see Whoa. Like, they really 435 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,220 thought through their colors and the photo of themselves they 436 00:28:22,220 --> 00:28:25,310 have on and the message they want to say and And out of all 437 00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:28,070 the links they have and the things they say like what are 438 00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:31,460 they promoting? Or what do they want me to think when I go to 439 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:35,660 their website, and that's one of those kind of painful and just 440 00:28:35,660 --> 00:28:39,170 it takes a long time to get to get put in our head. I'm in my 441 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:42,050 late 30s. Like we said maybe about my late 40s I'll have more 442 00:28:42,050 --> 00:28:46,820 of a handle on this idea of just going back and refining and like 443 00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:50,900 seeing maybe not what not quite what I did wrong, but just like 444 00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:54,440 how can I keep on doing better keep on doing better? And not 445 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,050 just making the same old mistakes? Like you're like 446 00:28:57,050 --> 00:29:00,620 you're saying, How can I make it a better experience or a better 447 00:29:00,620 --> 00:29:03,650 outcome for the person I'm talking to? I mean, my mind, my 448 00:29:03,650 --> 00:29:06,080 mind is blown. But I also don't want to continue this 449 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,410 conversation too much further, because we want to keep people 450 00:29:09,470 --> 00:29:11,600 interested in thirsty and excited, right? 451 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:15,000 Mark Goulston: Absolutely. Go back to your website. And if 452 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,930 you're listening or watching, go back to your websites and look 453 00:29:18,930 --> 00:29:22,800 at it through the eyes of the people you want to attract. And 454 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,750 when they see it take action and look at it through their eyes 455 00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:35,280 and when they go wow. Huh? Yes. be candid with yourself. And if 456 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:41,730 they wouldn't go while Yes, fix it. Until that's exactly how 457 00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:44,040 they go. Fantastic. 458 00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:46,530 Robert Plank: I can't think of a better way for us to end our 459 00:29:46,530 --> 00:29:52,710 conversation. Get to Wow. Huh? Yes. And so if people are amazed 460 00:29:52,740 --> 00:29:55,800 and paroled everything else from our conversations today, Dr. 461 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,860 Mark, what's the next step? How can they get your book? Find 462 00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:01,440 your website, find out about About this Michaelangelo 463 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,020 mindset, the whole kit and caboodle, what do we do? 464 00:30:04,829 --> 00:30:08,279 Mark Goulston: Well, I have my LinkedIn qR up there that you 465 00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:10,859 can zoom in, it'll take you to LinkedIn. And that's pretty up 466 00:30:10,859 --> 00:30:15,059 to date. And we have a website. It's really pre pre beta 467 00:30:15,059 --> 00:30:21,089 Michelangelo mindset and Michael Angelo's, am I ch e l? It's not 468 00:30:21,089 --> 00:30:29,099 Michael h e l. m IC, H e. l. Angela, Mike mindset, and people 469 00:30:29,099 --> 00:30:33,059 are getting it. I mean, they just understand it intuitively, 470 00:30:33,059 --> 00:30:36,509 and that's why it's nominated for a breakthrough idea award 471 00:30:36,779 --> 00:30:41,219 from thinker's 50. And I don't think I'll get it because it's 472 00:30:41,219 --> 00:30:46,799 too new, but people immediately get it. Oh, that's exactly how I 473 00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:49,739 need to approach the world and you can connect with us through 474 00:30:49,739 --> 00:30:55,139 the website, contact us and if you're interested in how you can 475 00:30:55,139 --> 00:30:58,649 develop it, so how you can look at the world through his eyes or 476 00:30:58,649 --> 00:31:01,679 my eyes. It'll make your life much better. 477 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,670 Robert Plank: I agree. We all want a better life with with 478 00:31:05,670 --> 00:31:09,120 simplicity without all the extra clutter so the place to go right 479 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,520 now to run to not walk to but run to Michaelangelo mindset.com 480 00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:19,350 and if you're watching on video, you click on the take a picture 481 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,090 button and you zoom in and I don't think I have my window 482 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:26,940 zoomed in enough but it'll load up on the website it's as if 483 00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:29,730 you're taking a picture and then you go and hold it up into that 484 00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:33,390 QR code and we will see you there on Dr. Marks LinkedIn and 485 00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:36,990 we will see you there at Michelangelo mindset calm and 486 00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:40,380 Thanks Dr. Mark for stopping by and blowing our minds. I feel 487 00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:43,470 like 25 different ways I really appreciate my mind being blown. 488 00:31:44,010 --> 00:31:47,070 Mark Goulston: Well, thank thank you for being open to getting it 489 00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:47,520 blown.