1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,320 announcer: marketer of the Day episode 849 agency Survival 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,710 Guide productize, a service business and standout in a 3 00:00:07,710 --> 00:00:09,810 crowded market with Max trailer. 4 00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:17,070 Robert Plank: Welcome back to the podcast. We're here with Max 5 00:00:17,070 --> 00:00:20,790 trailer, who coaches, consultants and strategy teams 6 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:24,240 to productize their services. He is the host of the interview 7 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,330 show beers with Max, He's authored the book, agency 8 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:31,260 survival guide, How to productize consulting services 9 00:00:31,350 --> 00:00:34,560 and do other things better too. You can find them at Max 10 00:00:34,590 --> 00:00:39,330 trailer.com. And I really highly suggest that as this interview 11 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:43,170 is ramping up, you have that webpage open in a browser tab 12 00:00:43,170 --> 00:00:45,990 because I just clicked on it about two minutes ago. And I was 13 00:00:45,990 --> 00:00:50,280 immediately engaged, sucked in intrigued entertained. So we're 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,560 going to have a fun conversation. So Mac battery 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:53,220 talking to you. 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,010 Unknown: Thrilled to be here. Thanks for the wonderful intro. 17 00:00:56,610 --> 00:00:59,580 Robert Plank: Well, you're very welcome. And so what I liked 18 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:02,700 about just my very first impression of you seeing about 19 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:06,420 30 seconds of what it is that you're doing is you very quickly 20 00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:10,200 bring up a problem, you introduce a story, you kind of 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,440 have a little bit of what not to do, instead of just giving us 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,600 the facts giving us the details, you give us something 23 00:01:15,660 --> 00:01:18,900 intriguing. So tell me some things. Tell me about what has 24 00:01:18,930 --> 00:01:21,480 you intrigued? What has you passionate? What's your current 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,940 focus? What is the problem we're solving today? 26 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:31,320 Unknown: Well, at a very young age, I realized that my, my 27 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:33,660 father was different than all the other dads he was home all 28 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:37,920 the time. And so he became like the cool dad and went to Disney 29 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,840 World all the time. And I walked into his office, he tells the 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,000 story because I don't remember it. But I walked into his office 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,400 when I was five years old. And I asked him Dad, where do you make 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:52,740 the money. And he had to explain to me that MIT pretty thought it 33 00:01:52,740 --> 00:01:55,440 was, I thought he was printing money. And so he explained to me 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,310 that that was illegal, but that he had a digital scalable, 35 00:01:59,310 --> 00:02:03,420 residual, digital, digital scalable residual business 36 00:02:03,420 --> 00:02:08,130 model. And what that basically meant is, he did something once 37 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:13,530 and got paid forever. And so my, the lesson to my five year old 38 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:17,460 business self was to put your personal life first, and build a 39 00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:20,370 business that works around your personal life and not the other 40 00:02:20,370 --> 00:02:25,170 way around. And I think that is the biggest problem in our 41 00:02:25,170 --> 00:02:29,160 society today. And I think that it's a really interesting and 42 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,750 fun time, because magically, the entire world was exposed to 43 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:37,800 their own ability to run their own thing. And we're seeing the 44 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,520 largest shift from corporate America to independent 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,710 consultants and people starting their own businesses. And I 46 00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:44,610 think it's all the time. 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,700 Robert Plank: And I agree with you completely that it is I 48 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:51,720 mean, I think that you and I, we have those of those great uncles 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,900 or those grandparents who they got a job working at the gas 50 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:58,320 station at age 18. And they worked until age 65. And that's 51 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,290 all they really had to worry about. But then times of change. 52 00:03:01,350 --> 00:03:04,920 And the downside to the old way of working was that you kind of 53 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,140 worked yourself to death. And you didn't have fun, sort of 54 00:03:07,140 --> 00:03:10,650 like you're mentioning there, you don't get to build your your 55 00:03:10,650 --> 00:03:13,650 business or your income around your lifestyle. But now in this 56 00:03:13,650 --> 00:03:17,130 modern age, with medical advances, and all those sorts of 57 00:03:17,130 --> 00:03:21,120 things, we will be living to 100 we will be changing careers. 58 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:24,750 There's this miracle, this magic of remote work where you can 59 00:03:24,870 --> 00:03:27,780 work anywhere, if you don't like the career you're in, if you 60 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:30,630 don't like the side hustle, or whatever you have going on, you 61 00:03:30,630 --> 00:03:34,470 can ditch that and change that. And so what do people need to 62 00:03:34,470 --> 00:03:37,410 know? Because it all sounds it sounds a little bit scary, first 63 00:03:37,410 --> 00:03:40,470 of all, right, that there's all this up ending chaos. But then 64 00:03:40,470 --> 00:03:43,290 there's sometimes that that thinking of like, well, what do 65 00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:47,430 I need to do to get to that lifestyle that your dad had that 66 00:03:47,430 --> 00:03:50,610 you mentioned? Because for a lot of people, it's like, well, how 67 00:03:50,610 --> 00:03:53,580 do I get there? What's What in practical terms do I need to do? 68 00:03:53,580 --> 00:03:56,820 So tell us what we need to know about, you know, scaling and 69 00:03:56,820 --> 00:03:57,780 taking some action. 70 00:03:59,460 --> 00:04:02,430 Unknown: I guess the first thing my grandfather always said, you 71 00:04:02,430 --> 00:04:06,480 have to know the territory. So you know, we're either selling 72 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,060 knowledge or we're selling things. And I think a lot of 73 00:04:09,060 --> 00:04:13,020 people that are just getting out of corporate America in doing 74 00:04:13,020 --> 00:04:16,290 their own thing find themselves in the consulting space. They're 75 00:04:16,290 --> 00:04:21,180 selling knowledge. And the key to a lifestyle is to be able to 76 00:04:21,180 --> 00:04:26,460 charge a price premium. Meaning that you're charging more than 77 00:04:26,460 --> 00:04:29,130 just your you're not trading time for dollars in a way where 78 00:04:29,130 --> 00:04:32,610 you're going to be price shopped against against the next person, 79 00:04:32,910 --> 00:04:36,480 you are able to charge for the time that you're not working. 80 00:04:37,710 --> 00:04:40,890 Instead of instead of trading your time you are charging for a 81 00:04:40,890 --> 00:04:43,200 lifetime of accumulated knowledge you're charging for 82 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,460 access to that. And so for people just getting started, 83 00:04:47,820 --> 00:04:51,510 they need to realize that this is a complete game with zero 84 00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:56,400 rules. If you are charging for something that is perceived as 85 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,090 valuable, and difficult to replace, then you can charge Do 86 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,730 whatever you want. And I'm convinced that you can sell 87 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,320 anything to anyone at any price one out of five times. What 88 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,360 holds people back is their limiting beliefs? 89 00:05:15,150 --> 00:05:18,330 Robert Plank: Okay, well, that's what I'd say about that. I just 90 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,170 had to let that sit for a second and think and sink in. So you're 91 00:05:22,170 --> 00:05:25,770 saying that we need to have something that is valuable, 92 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:28,620 difficult to replace. And you also throw in there a little bit 93 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:31,620 of it being a numbers game, like you said, it's, you're not going 94 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:34,320 to hit the homerun every time it will be like that one out of 95 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,860 five times where you make that happen. And so to kind of get 96 00:05:37,860 --> 00:05:40,710 our heads wrapped around that, that you have any interesting 97 00:05:40,740 --> 00:05:44,910 stories, case studies, kind of, I mean, like journeys to take us 98 00:05:44,910 --> 00:05:48,030 on here about how you've done it, or you've helped other 99 00:05:48,030 --> 00:05:52,260 people kind of make this shift from, as you said, trading time 100 00:05:52,260 --> 00:05:57,270 for dollars race to the bottom into maybe having more of a like 101 00:05:57,300 --> 00:06:01,530 a boutique uniqueness more like slow printer kind of lifestyle. 102 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:02,430 What do you have? 103 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,020 Unknown: Well, it accidentally happened to me. When I started 104 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:10,440 running a marketing agency, professional services business, 105 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,110 my my dad thought that I was never listening as a kid is the 106 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:17,550 exact opposite of digital scalable residual. And the worst 107 00:06:17,550 --> 00:06:21,030 part was when we hit our goals, and they were usually aligned 108 00:06:21,030 --> 00:06:25,200 with some revenue number, or an amount of new clients, my life 109 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,040 got worse, dark circles under the eyes, my wife, now 110 00:06:29,070 --> 00:06:32,520 girlfriend at the time, was worried about me. But then I 111 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,960 found strategy. And we had a really interesting opportunity 112 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:40,650 at the agency I was running, to work with or to speak with 30 113 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,210 clients all at once. And it kind of broke the system because we 114 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:48,090 didn't have the people to service and provide provide the 115 00:06:48,090 --> 00:06:51,210 services that we were doing. For 30 clients, the only thing we 116 00:06:51,210 --> 00:06:55,650 could do for them was to give them a plan, strategy thinking. 117 00:06:56,340 --> 00:07:01,830 And so we created a plan that we could we could use with all 118 00:07:01,830 --> 00:07:05,580 those clients, basically a big madlib, we created a workshop 119 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:09,390 and some operating procedures to make it super efficient. And day 120 00:07:09,390 --> 00:07:13,260 one, we were charging $2,500 By day 30, we were charging 121 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:18,330 $30,000. And we had positioned it as a content strategy for 122 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:21,900 higher education. So we learned a bit about how to position how 123 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:24,330 to position your knowledge and charge a premium for it. But 124 00:07:24,330 --> 00:07:28,110 that was a case where we invented something, we didn't do 125 00:07:28,110 --> 00:07:31,710 anything, we were just charging for the plan. It was a five hour 126 00:07:31,710 --> 00:07:35,640 process. And we were able to take the price point from $2,500 127 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,060 to $30,000. Because it was perceived as indispensable 128 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:41,910 knowledge, it was intangible, you couldn't, you couldn't price 129 00:07:41,910 --> 00:07:48,960 shop it and the value was all in the eyes of the client. It 130 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:52,260 didn't take very long for us to figure out that we could train 131 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:55,710 other people how to do that. So we took our processes, we took 132 00:07:55,710 --> 00:07:59,250 our templates, and we licensed it to other agencies all around 133 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:02,220 the world. All of a sudden, I was being woken up in the middle 134 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:05,310 of the night, to agencies on the other side of the planet that 135 00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:10,020 were using our intellectual property, the 30 page madlib 136 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:13,680 that we created, and a little workshop, and we were getting 137 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,710 paid 20% Of all the work that they were doing, they would 138 00:08:16,710 --> 00:08:20,940 charge the $20,000 We'd get paid 20% Just because we owned the 139 00:08:20,940 --> 00:08:24,030 intellectual property that changed my life ruined agency 140 00:08:24,030 --> 00:08:27,060 life. For me, I left the agency very shortly after that. But it 141 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:31,350 taught me that a strategy is a really fun place to be because 142 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:34,260 you can charge whatever you want for it. And that if you can 143 00:08:34,260 --> 00:08:40,020 create a product a tangible solution out of your knowledge, 144 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,900 then there's a lot of fun scalable revenue streams that 145 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:43,890 you can play with. 146 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,730 Robert Plank: I agree there's like that, that amount of like, 147 00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:50,760 there's that leverage aspect where, you know, like you said, 148 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,280 you don't have to trade time for dollars, you can just figure out 149 00:08:53,310 --> 00:08:56,550 this plan, and then others can implement the plan for you. And 150 00:08:56,550 --> 00:08:59,520 you mentioned earlier that there are these limiting beliefs, 151 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,880 right? And that people say things like, Well, how do I how 152 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,360 do I know if I've stumbled on the magic where I can go from 153 00:09:06,450 --> 00:09:11,790 $2,000 to $3,000? Or there's a limiting belief of how do I talk 154 00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:15,570 to enough people are how do I build the list, get the traffic 155 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:20,100 run the ads, so when you share stories like this, and someone 156 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:24,300 says, Let me poopoo on on what you just told me and someone 157 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:27,060 says I can't do it for this, this and this reason. What are 158 00:09:27,060 --> 00:09:28,710 the usual objections you hear? 159 00:09:30,180 --> 00:09:33,210 Unknown: Yeah, well, the objections Yeah, what a typical 160 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:37,110 objection is my clients won't pay that much. You know, Oh, you 161 00:09:37,110 --> 00:09:39,450 want me to you want me to double my prices Max. My clients won't 162 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:42,990 pay for it. The only problem with that is that I just asked 163 00:09:42,990 --> 00:09:47,220 them okay, well, when was the last time you tried? Most people 164 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:50,070 listening to this have not attempted to raise their prices 165 00:09:50,070 --> 00:09:54,360 at all in the course of their entire career. So I've got a 166 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,400 policy if you get a yes. double the price. If you get a no get 167 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,310 for more than Those then split the difference? Because the 168 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:06,840 reality is no doesn't mean no, no means we need to have an in 169 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,050 depth conversation about how we get to yes, no is the start of a 170 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:12,810 really valuable conversation of where the money's coming from 171 00:10:12,990 --> 00:10:19,680 what they really see value in. So it during a during a when 172 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:22,410 you're bringing on a new client, if you get a yes, you don't 173 00:10:22,410 --> 00:10:25,260 learn anything, you just know that you are leaving money on 174 00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:25,710 the table. 175 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,130 Robert Plank: That's huge. That's powerful that and I think 176 00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:34,560 we've all been in that situation where we've got the Yes, and it 177 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:37,290 felt like it happened too fast or you felt like like I don't 178 00:10:37,290 --> 00:10:41,220 know, I could have gotten more for what I did. Or I could have, 179 00:10:41,340 --> 00:10:44,640 like added more to the package and also increased the price and 180 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,470 kind of not had to scramble for the next client after that. And 181 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:51,270 so these are all things, interesting things to be 182 00:10:51,270 --> 00:10:51,960 thinking about. 183 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,990 Unknown: Well, that sorry, I think my three year old just 184 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:59,670 slammed into my office door. Maybe it wasn't looking. But you 185 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:02,100 made a good point there you said, you know, add things to 186 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:05,010 the package, so I can raise my prices. The other limiting 187 00:11:05,010 --> 00:11:08,640 belief is that activity equals value. So if I want to make the 188 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,360 thing more valuable, if I want to raise my prices, I need to 189 00:11:12,390 --> 00:11:16,350 add things to it. When in reality clients appreciate 190 00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:22,560 simplicity, clients appreciate the having to do one thing and 191 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,830 not five. Not to mention, it's a heck of a lot easier to take 192 00:11:25,830 --> 00:11:30,750 action on a plan that recommends you do one thing, and not, not 193 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:34,650 30 or 40 things. So I would I always encourage people to 194 00:11:34,650 --> 00:11:37,260 figure out to interview your clients figure out what they 195 00:11:37,260 --> 00:11:40,080 find the least valuable, and take that out of what you're 196 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,110 doing. And raise the price. 197 00:11:44,490 --> 00:11:47,400 Robert Plank: Interesting addition by subtraction and your 198 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,040 mate. I mean, you're reminding me of all these kinds of things 199 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,740 that I've had to unlearn over the years. And I'm still not 200 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:55,470 super great about it. But it was even telling my wife yesterday 201 00:11:55,530 --> 00:11:58,350 that I had a sales call and I was presenting to someone this 202 00:11:58,350 --> 00:12:01,590 one package. And my wife said, why don't why didn't you offer 203 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:04,560 this one? You say that? And I said because they didn't ask for 204 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:07,860 it. Because I was more in the mindset of asking questions, 205 00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:10,920 figuring out what they wanted and kind of working together to 206 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,670 coming to an answer. And you're making me think back to when I 207 00:12:14,670 --> 00:12:18,060 was younger, I had the problem of info dumping. Right? I said, 208 00:12:18,090 --> 00:12:20,370 I would say I could do this, this this is this. And it just 209 00:12:20,370 --> 00:12:23,310 added this complexity? And the answer was, I don't even know 210 00:12:23,340 --> 00:12:27,000 what I'm looking at. And so kind of along those lines, since 211 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,600 we're talking about like simplifying, taking things out 212 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,520 to make it more of a direct path. Can you tell us about any 213 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,480 like mistakes such as this that you've made, or things that 214 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,200 maybe we could learn from as far as you doing it the hard way, 215 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,170 and you may be showing us the shortcut of like, don't do this, 216 00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:46,950 avoid that. 217 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,320 Unknown: Don't wait for your best clients to show up. You 218 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,260 gotta go get them. If you're not staring at a list of your next 219 00:12:55,260 --> 00:12:58,650 40 ideal customers, you're doing it wrong. Because the most 220 00:12:58,650 --> 00:13:00,930 powerful question in business once you figure out what you 221 00:13:00,930 --> 00:13:03,360 want to do, and I suggest that you figure out one thing that 222 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,480 you want to do not a menu of services, not Hello, Mr. And 223 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,750 Mrs. Client, what would you like today, you're not a waiter, 224 00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:15,420 figure out what the your best, most powerful and valuable 225 00:13:15,660 --> 00:13:19,380 strategic process and do that and only that, you might have to 226 00:13:19,380 --> 00:13:22,020 call it something different for people to buy it. But do one 227 00:13:22,020 --> 00:13:24,720 thing, after you figure that out, the most important question 228 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,010 is who is going to pay you the most. Because it's all perceived 229 00:13:29,010 --> 00:13:31,890 value. The money you make has nothing to do with what you do. 230 00:13:31,890 --> 00:13:33,960 It has to do with who you're selling to who you're working 231 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,260 with what they perceive the value today. So my biggest 232 00:13:37,260 --> 00:13:41,460 mistake was not not being aggressive and intentional about 233 00:13:41,460 --> 00:13:44,130 my sales pipeline sooner. I've been doing it for six years now. 234 00:13:45,630 --> 00:13:50,130 And it probably took about two years for me to get really, to 235 00:13:50,130 --> 00:13:53,160 really understand the numbers and what I had to do. So that I 236 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,210 always have a surplus of clients. But for years, I did 237 00:13:57,210 --> 00:14:00,240 the marketing thing. I created content, I waited for my best 238 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,620 clients to show up and clients showed up. But my best clients 239 00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:09,360 didn't show up. I left a lot of money on the table and worked 240 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,680 for a lot of people that really represented an opportunity cost. 241 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,110 So that was that was a big lesson is really get serious 242 00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:24,240 about who you want to work with. And say no to a lot of deals 243 00:14:24,270 --> 00:14:26,130 that don't fit that criteria. 244 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:31,170 Robert Plank: And so you're making me think that there's a 245 00:14:31,170 --> 00:14:33,690 situation a few months ago where there was a little bit of like 246 00:14:33,690 --> 00:14:36,930 an 8020 problem where I have these two problem clients that 247 00:14:36,930 --> 00:14:40,620 were just they were the source of all my anger, frustration 248 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:43,230 sucking up all this time and I had to do this hard decision 249 00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:46,290 you're mentioning of just like firing these clients because it 250 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:48,750 just it wasn't worth it. It wasn't looking at working out. 251 00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:52,650 And so this whole idea of finding your ideal clients 252 00:14:52,650 --> 00:14:56,070 having this list of your dream customers, some people talk 253 00:14:56,070 --> 00:14:58,530 about it, but it feels like one of these concepts where it's 254 00:14:58,530 --> 00:15:02,580 it's often a cliche but not really, like explain very much 255 00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:05,370 in practical terms where people say things like, well have a 256 00:15:05,370 --> 00:15:08,190 customer avatar, but then you don't see them doing the things 257 00:15:08,190 --> 00:15:11,040 you're mentioning of actually going out and contacting these 258 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,730 people. So as far as this this list of ideal clients, where 259 00:15:14,730 --> 00:15:19,170 does it come from? Is it? Like, is it some combination of like 260 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:22,200 your existing customers or people who see in the 261 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,290 marketplace, or when you say, you know, ideal clients, ideal 262 00:15:25,290 --> 00:15:29,700 customers? Where do we begin to brainstorm this list? 263 00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:33,870 Unknown: Well, you begin with your best customer today, begin 264 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:39,540 with your best customer, go on to their LinkedIn profile. And 265 00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:41,970 then get on the phone with somebody that really likes doing 266 00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:44,190 research. And those people are out there, and you give them 267 00:15:44,190 --> 00:15:49,170 that profile and say, find me 10 more. That's it, that's all you 268 00:15:49,170 --> 00:15:51,930 got to do, maybe cost you 100 bucks, they'll do some hours of, 269 00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:55,350 they'll do some hours of study. And they'll come back and you'll 270 00:15:55,350 --> 00:16:01,650 start to see the patterns in, in what you can publicly identify 271 00:16:01,650 --> 00:16:05,700 about people that says that they will make for a great customer, 272 00:16:06,060 --> 00:16:09,720 a friend, somebody that somebody that you can connect with, 273 00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:13,230 there's a lot of information out there on the internet. But I do 274 00:16:13,230 --> 00:16:16,200 it all, I do it all by hand. I mean, I don't do any of it. But 275 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,190 I have researchers that research around the clock and 276 00:16:20,190 --> 00:16:25,320 consistently find me, my best customers. And each quarter I do 277 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,830 some experiments, I say I want to, I want to talk to a pocket 278 00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:32,310 of people that I've never spoken to before, maybe agency owners 279 00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:36,660 that have financial backgrounds, because what I do has a has a 280 00:16:36,660 --> 00:16:40,230 good financial value proposition. I learned that 281 00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:43,890 agency owners that have creative backgrounds, I can't really have 282 00:16:43,890 --> 00:16:46,200 a business discussion with them. So it's not worth talking to 283 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,860 them. Well, it is worth talking to them, but not at the not at 284 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:52,770 the not at the cost not at the opportunity cost of talking with 285 00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:55,200 agency owners that have financial backgrounds, or 286 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,870 business backgrounds or have run and sold their own business 287 00:16:57,870 --> 00:17:02,580 before. All those things you can't, you can't just create a 288 00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:05,280 list, you have to you have to have human beings interpreting 289 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,680 what they're seeing on their websites and on their profiles, 290 00:17:07,830 --> 00:17:08,460 but it's worth it. 291 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:11,670 Robert Plank: And this kind of person is called a LinkedIn 292 00:17:11,670 --> 00:17:12,450 researcher. 293 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:18,240 Unknown: There's any researcher, okay, anyone will do it. Not a 294 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,830 lot of people are running around saying I'm a researcher. And 295 00:17:22,830 --> 00:17:25,290 yet, there's a lot of people out there doing research for money. 296 00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:28,800 Robert Plank: And this is an interesting idea. Hear that, but 297 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,430 you're saying well, look at it's almost like a look alike 298 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:36,780 audience but done by hand and done on LinkedIn. And this is an 299 00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:39,990 interesting idea, because you're saying, well, instead of, 300 00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:43,350 instead of jumping in to some new profession that I know 301 00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:46,500 nothing about are some new type of person, I already have this 302 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:50,490 best customer. So I already have maybe a little bit of a rough 303 00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:55,260 case study, I already can talk a little bit of the lingo already, 304 00:17:55,290 --> 00:17:59,100 there's probably a ton of just invisible factors of ways that 305 00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:02,730 it kind of excites you working on their business. And for some 306 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:05,460 reason you work well together. So why try to reinvent the 307 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:09,450 wheel. And so you're saying, and so I also like your, the way you 308 00:18:09,450 --> 00:18:11,730 phrase it there with your saying, I want to talk to a 309 00:18:11,730 --> 00:18:15,060 pocket of customers. And that's kind of that's kind of sometimes 310 00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:19,470 a little bit of a brain drain Messer upper is that you're 311 00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:23,580 thinking well, how wide? Or how deep? Do I need to go? Right? Do 312 00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:26,850 I go deep on like 10 people? Or do I need to overload my 313 00:18:26,850 --> 00:18:30,150 schedule and talk to 100 prospects? So when you say I 314 00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:32,850 want to talk to a pocket of customers, does that mean for 315 00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:36,780 you, like 10 people this month, or 20 people this month, because 316 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:39,660 there's always that that issue of when we say I know, I need to 317 00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:42,090 get myself out there, I need to do like a little bit of a short 318 00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:45,660 burst, what is a good size or a good thing to shoot for as far 319 00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:48,150 as like a pocket of new potential customers? 320 00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:52,830 Unknown: Well, well, it is a numbers game. So I always have, 321 00:18:53,250 --> 00:18:57,090 I always have 15 conversations with new prospects every month. 322 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,200 Because I know that out of 20 people I speak with, half of 323 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,660 those are going to become opportunities, meaning that they 324 00:19:03,660 --> 00:19:06,720 are a good fit, and they are interested in how I can help 325 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,820 them out of those 10. About half will turn into proposals and 326 00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:15,630 I'll close one out of five if I'm pricing correctly. So 327 00:19:15,630 --> 00:19:18,420 regardless of who I'm going after I stick with those 328 00:19:18,420 --> 00:19:26,610 numbers, but I look at it as you know, a pocket might be okay. I 329 00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:30,060 understand that there are only so many agency owners with 330 00:19:30,060 --> 00:19:32,550 financial backgrounds. Now my researchers are going to go out 331 00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:36,570 and they're going to try and guess how many are identifiable 332 00:19:36,570 --> 00:19:40,020 on the internet, just by taking a pocket of agencies, how many 333 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,560 financial backgrounds Okay, so let's say there's 200 How long 334 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,330 is it going to take me to get through that pocket? Well, if 335 00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:51,690 I'm reaching out to at a month, it'll take you know, I'm bad at 336 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:55,590 math, but three or so three or so months, so I know that at the 337 00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:57,870 end of month one I'm gonna have to start doing research. I'm 338 00:19:57,870 --> 00:20:03,300 gonna have to start looking for another pocket My My niche, if 339 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:06,450 you will, I'm commercially focused on helping marketing 340 00:20:06,450 --> 00:20:10,140 agencies and marketing consultants. But the subsets of 341 00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:14,910 those I mean, I've, I've probably targeted 50 different 342 00:20:14,910 --> 00:20:19,350 individual subsets of agencies or independent consultants. And 343 00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:22,260 it's all it's all an experiment to me, but to train your mind 344 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,050 and to get really good at those conversations. To your point, 345 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,890 the you know, the best, the best question people ask is, What 346 00:20:28,890 --> 00:20:33,030 have you done for someone like me lately. And so getting 347 00:20:33,030 --> 00:20:36,180 yourself in the getting yourself in the mode of talking to 348 00:20:36,420 --> 00:20:40,980 something as detailed as agency owners under $5 million, with 349 00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:43,920 financial backgrounds, you're gonna get a lot of practice with 350 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,320 that financial conversation, you're gonna get that value 351 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,230 proposition down. And at the end of that pocket, at the end of 352 00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:52,500 that three months, you're gonna be able to say, Okay, I know 353 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:56,310 exactly what I can do. If I choose to go after these 354 00:20:56,310 --> 00:21:00,480 financial, financial background. agency owners, I know the 355 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,330 numbers, I know the value proposition. I know how many 356 00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:09,510 there are, now I can go pursue another pocket. And I do think 357 00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:12,630 that is a limiting belief. Like there's not enough. There's not 358 00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:15,270 enough clients out there for me to, for me to have a viable 359 00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:19,230 business. I only work with three clients at a time. And the 360 00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:22,050 tenure is probably three and I work in quarterly engagements. 361 00:21:22,050 --> 00:21:24,900 So the tenure is probably three quarters, how many clients do I 362 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:31,830 really need? Just enough to make the numbers work just enough to 363 00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:35,970 make the numbers work. Exactly. And there's usually enough, like 364 00:21:35,970 --> 00:21:40,470 there's i You're in a very rare scenario, when there's not, you 365 00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:45,630 know, 100 to 500 lookalikes of an ideal customer you gotta get 366 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:49,770 you gotta get pretty darn detailed. So I don't I don't 367 00:21:49,770 --> 00:21:50,730 come across that often. 368 00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:55,110 Robert Plank: Okay, so even I imagine that if you were to get 369 00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:57,690 like, almost too detailed, and that's a higher price. 370 00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:01,200 Unknown: Yeah, there you go. Exactly. You're, you're a quick 371 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:07,320 learner. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Your your demand must remain 372 00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:10,020 above your capacity. That's where price premiums live. 373 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:15,180 Robert Plank: Awesome, powerful. This is all great to think 374 00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:18,060 about. And you always you always hear about, again, another 375 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:22,590 cliche of like, well, your, your prospect should feel like you're 376 00:22:22,590 --> 00:22:26,220 reading their, their diary without them even realizing. And 377 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:28,560 sometimes you're thinking of things that they haven't even 378 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,770 considered or haven't even done yet. And so So yeah, by pursuing 379 00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:34,170 this look alike idea, that's an easy way to do it. And 380 00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:38,550 everything that you've mentioned here is very doable. As far as 381 00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:41,880 living the lifestyle on your terms. And even like knowing 382 00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:44,790 your rough numbers, you're rough math, knowing like, I need to 383 00:22:44,790 --> 00:22:48,870 talk to this number of people to get them into this bucket to get 384 00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:51,810 them into that bucket. And that means that in order to keep the 385 00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:55,500 business growing, I need to have this pocket and work through the 386 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,920 pocket in this amount of time. It's all like, easy enough to 387 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,220 wrap around your head, it easy enough to know what your inputs 388 00:23:02,220 --> 00:23:05,100 and outputs are going to be. So this is a really awesome, 389 00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:07,560 amazing plan. And I want to make sure that in the next few 390 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,890 minutes, we get to promoting you and your agency and your book 391 00:23:10,890 --> 00:23:12,990 and your website and all that fun stuff. But right before we 392 00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:16,050 get to that, Max, is there anything you feel like we left 393 00:23:16,050 --> 00:23:18,360 out of this conversation? Is there anything that we need to 394 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:23,130 just stuff in in the 11th hour to make sure that people really 395 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,220 get a lesson to go home with anything coming to mind? Yeah, 396 00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:31,620 Unknown: grow is a really, like, it's a really tough word for me. 397 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,120 You know, like, my original story growing was revenue 398 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:38,610 growing was the amount of clients when we grew in that 399 00:23:38,610 --> 00:23:45,120 way. It was painful. And so any, any entrepreneur or especially 400 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,750 solo consultants, that are independent consultants that are 401 00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:52,560 selling their knowledge and, and their time, they have to figure 402 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,620 out what grow means to them. You know, go back to what do you 403 00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:59,010 want? What do you want your personal life to look like? Grow 404 00:23:59,010 --> 00:24:01,860 for me, I'm making the money I want to make, I don't want to 405 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:04,050 grow, the amount of clients I work with, I don't want to grow 406 00:24:04,050 --> 00:24:06,090 the amount of money I'm making, I have no interest in that what 407 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:09,120 I want to grow is my personal time. So this year, I'm taking 408 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:12,180 three months off last year, I took six weeks off. This year, 409 00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:14,790 I'm taking three months off, I'll work I'll work January, 410 00:24:14,790 --> 00:24:17,280 February, March, take a month off May June, July, take a month 411 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,170 off and so on. Because I know that I want to play more golf, I 412 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:25,470 want to hang out with my kids. I've defined growth for me in a 413 00:24:25,470 --> 00:24:29,190 way that I'm motivated to achieve it. You got to find that 414 00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:29,730 for yourself. 415 00:24:30,810 --> 00:24:33,180 Robert Plank: That is very good. I will be chewing on that all 416 00:24:33,180 --> 00:24:36,600 day today. What does growth mean for me? And so for those of us 417 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,020 who want to grow in whatever term that means for us 418 00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:42,810 personally, what is the next step here? How do we if we're if 419 00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:45,300 we're intrigued, amazed and turned on and so much more of 420 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,780 what you told us today? Where do we go? What action do we take to 421 00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:50,340 kind of keep this conversation going? 422 00:24:51,179 --> 00:24:54,029 Unknown: Well, Max trailer.com Yeah, I tried to make it simple. 423 00:24:54,029 --> 00:24:57,689 You do as well, Robert. That's where you can find me. It's 424 00:24:57,689 --> 00:25:01,139 where I hang out. That's where my podcast is. You can download 425 00:25:01,139 --> 00:25:05,159 a free copy of my book. If that speaks to you. I do. I do small 426 00:25:05,159 --> 00:25:08,369 group workshops to keep my mental exercise going. It's my 427 00:25:08,369 --> 00:25:11,249 productize workshops, the most valuable thing I do for clients. 428 00:25:11,459 --> 00:25:14,759 And I do it every two weeks for people that are thinking about 429 00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:17,849 this and want to make progress because I love doing it. I find 430 00:25:17,849 --> 00:25:20,909 some clients doing that. And, you know, I need the mental 431 00:25:20,909 --> 00:25:23,729 exercise. So, head over to Mac's trailer.com There's a little 432 00:25:23,729 --> 00:25:28,649 form there that says schedule a call with me. And I think you're 433 00:25:28,649 --> 00:25:30,539 a good fit, you'll get an invite to the next workshop. 434 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,040 Robert Plank: Okay, well, we let's hope that anyone who is 435 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,800 the right person to take the next step with you is the right 436 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,770 fit. And if you're listening this podcast, which you are, 437 00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:45,750 then don't be the reason why Max fatigues on his mental exercise 438 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:48,780 challenge him keep his next intellectualize going the place 439 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:57,030 to go is M A xtraylor.com that is Max trailer.com and we will 440 00:25:57,030 --> 00:26:00,150 see you there and thanks max for showing up and having a good 441 00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:07,290 time with me. Cheers, Robert plank. We really appreciate you 442 00:26:07,290 --> 00:26:10,560 being a listener of the marketer of the date Podcast the place to 443 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,350 go right now. If you want to know more about running your own 444 00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:18,930 podcast is def Why podcast.com/free Go there right 445 00:26:18,930 --> 00:26:24,420 now claim your free gift dfi podcast.com/free