1 00:00:01,380 --> 00:00:05,640 Robert Plank: He scaled a Content Agency to $2.5 million 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,080 in two years, and then shifted gears to buy and grow other 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,100 agencies with untapped potential. If you own a niche 4 00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:18,300 marketing agency and you dream of handing it off to other 5 00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:22,220 excited, eager owners who are growing it without seeing it 6 00:00:22,220 --> 00:00:25,820 die, then this episode is all about what thoughtful 7 00:00:25,820 --> 00:00:29,300 acquisition really looks like, that entrepreneurial roller 8 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:32,660 coaster and all those amazing things. It's Mr. Carl Hughes 9 00:00:32,660 --> 00:00:37,100 from Carl l hughes.com return guest he was on a bunch of years 10 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:41,920 ago talking to us about draft dot Dev. But so much has changed 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,400 with both of us, and it's just it's an amazing journey. So Mr. 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,380 Carl, he was glad to see you again. What are 13 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:49,960 Karl Hughes: you up to? Yeah, good to see you, Robert. It's 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:55,000 been a fun and interesting five years of some growth, some 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,440 contraction, some learning, some failing, some succeeding. So as 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,580 it is, in entrepreneurship, it's a roller coaster, but it's been 17 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:03,780 a lot of fun. 18 00:01:03,780 --> 00:01:05,880 Robert Plank: Well, yeah, and I feel the same way. I feel like, 19 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,120 you know, pandemic, the probably the best thing to come out of it 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,320 was the increased zoom of it, all right? It's like, before 21 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:16,680 that. It's like, well, zoom. Well, should I have my camera on 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,500 or off? Is internet fast enough? Do people know how to use it? 23 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:22,400 And, like, we all had to figure it out. And I feel like for at 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,660 least for me, it went from like feeling left out because I kind 25 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:31,520 of scaled back going to offline events, and to now, like 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,300 podcasting and computers are faster, and if you want to just 27 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:38,180 get all your work done, you don't have to wait for the 28 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:42,580 computer to boot up. There is cloud, it's there's AI, it's a 29 00:01:42,580 --> 00:01:45,880 completely different world. And so what does that look like for 30 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,920 you? What's your current focus and passion? 31 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,280 Karl Hughes: Well, I think one of the things that the pandemic 32 00:01:51,340 --> 00:01:55,600 opened up for sure was the willingness of companies of all 33 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,380 sizes to work with agencies in a fully remote capacity. And so 34 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:02,400 kind of compare and contrast. Here, it used to be, probably 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,000 1020, years ago, really, any tech company that raised funding 36 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,360 would go down to the let's call it the corner marketing agency 37 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,500 with the big, you know, name and the big downtown address and go 38 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:17,640 work with them on marketing their business, whereas now, 39 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,260 because of the pandemic and going remote, people have really 40 00:02:21,260 --> 00:02:25,340 shifted those budgets from work with the big name agency to work 41 00:02:25,340 --> 00:02:28,460 with the specialized agency that knows our niche, that knows our 42 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:30,800 customer base better than anything else, anybody else. And 43 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,080 I think that's been really interesting, and that's been the 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,260 macro trend that I've sort of seen in the last five or 10 45 00:02:36,260 --> 00:02:40,300 years, probably that we've been aware of and sort of leaning 46 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:43,300 into as hard as we can with our with our agency, holding 47 00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:46,840 company. So yeah, to give you kind of a quick backstory on 48 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,320 five years, I started draft dot dev in 2020 during the pandemic, 49 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,140 it grew really quickly, hired a team, worked myself out of the 50 00:02:53,140 --> 00:02:56,920 day to day, got to a point where I took a whole month off, and it 51 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:00,160 was like, without checking any email, doing any calls. And it 52 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,920 was, in a way, liberating, but also, like, kind of, I felt 53 00:03:04,980 --> 00:03:07,680 alone on an island, like, what do I do next? You know, in a 54 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,980 way, I like, hit the quote, unquote entrepreneurial dream 55 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:13,440 of, like, running a business that paid me without a lot of my 56 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,280 time, but at the same time, it was also like a bit of a 57 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,860 nightmare, because I didn't have a direction. I felt a little 58 00:03:19,860 --> 00:03:22,880 rudderless. So I started working with a business coach and 59 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,580 talking to a lot of people, building a support network. And 60 00:03:25,940 --> 00:03:28,580 one of the things that came out of that was I needed a bigger, 61 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:31,460 kind of 10 Year Vision for what I was going to do. And it 62 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:33,620 couldn't just be make some passive income and sit on a 63 00:03:33,620 --> 00:03:35,900 beach, because that's just not I mean, you know, realistically, 64 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:38,420 the people who start companies are not the people who just want 65 00:03:38,420 --> 00:03:40,460 to sit back and, you know, collect a check doing nothing. 66 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:43,000 It's just not interesting, you know, like there's only so many 67 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,920 video games that I can play. So the what I kind of came to was, 68 00:03:47,980 --> 00:03:51,820 let's figure out what worked in draft dot Dev, build a template 69 00:03:51,820 --> 00:03:55,900 for running a niche, productized agency, and start buying more of 70 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:58,120 them and improving them, and then sharing some of the back 71 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,320 office resources. So in 2023 we bought the podcast 72 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,860 consultant.com does podcast production, mostly in the 73 00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:09,780 finance industry, and that business has continued to kind 74 00:04:09,780 --> 00:04:12,660 of grow, and we've continued improving over the last couple 75 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:14,760 of years, and seeing if we can apply some of those same 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,760 learnings from draft dot dev over there, it's also been a 77 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,900 good way for us to start combining some of the costs that 78 00:04:20,900 --> 00:04:24,680 all agencies of these sizes are going to share and to go through 79 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,200 the experience of buying another company. You know, we had never 80 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,660 done that before, and it's as an entrepreneur, it's very 81 00:04:29,660 --> 00:04:32,840 different coming into someone else's business and is going on 82 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,720 your own from scratch. So that's a bunch of things that we've 83 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,000 been working on. We we've done a couple other really small 84 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,240 acquisitions, like add on acquisitions, and we've looked 85 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,760 at, then looking at a couple other bigger ones as well in the 86 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,460 next year. So don't know exactly what the next year will bring, 87 00:04:45,460 --> 00:04:49,420 but the goal is to continue this, this, this build up of 88 00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:50,920 niche marketing agencies like that. 89 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,460 Robert Plank: Very nice, the upward trend and the momentum. 90 00:04:54,460 --> 00:04:58,180 And I have to confess that, because I've been doing I've 91 00:04:58,180 --> 00:05:01,440 been podcasting for 10 years or so in a. Couple years in this 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,040 idea of, like, buying and selling these digital companies, 93 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,040 it like just hearing these stories, it opened up a whole 94 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:11,640 other world, right? Because it's like the way that people talk 95 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,400 about it. It's like real estate, right? It's like, well, would it 96 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,360 make more sense to find, like, an empty plot of land? And you 97 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,780 go and you take a hammer and some nails, and you hammer 98 00:05:20,780 --> 00:05:23,660 together a rickety old house, and that seems like that's how a 99 00:05:23,660 --> 00:05:27,200 lot of people, including me, like, start and run their 100 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,720 businesses. But then there's these people out there that just 101 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,440 are more business minded. They say, Hey, there's this, there's 102 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,940 this company here, and it has potential, and because they are 103 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:41,200 listing it up for sale, they have financials. I can look into 104 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,620 it, I can see if it makes sense, and I can buy it. And it already 105 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:48,220 has, like, all this turn key elements in place, right? They 106 00:05:48,220 --> 00:05:50,320 have employees, they have number, they have operations, 107 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,020 they have traffic. It's like all these things that are already 108 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:56,860 working, and you can grow it, and you can flip it, or you can 109 00:05:56,860 --> 00:05:59,920 sell it, or you can improve it, or you can hang on to it, or you 110 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,820 can kind of say, like, Hey, we got this to work. And let's find 111 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:06,420 some other companies that maybe are struggling, or they put it 112 00:06:06,420 --> 00:06:10,380 up for sale and, like, acquire them. And it's just, it's such a 113 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,100 a fun like, kind of like assembling of the Lego 114 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,040 imagination ticker, if you will. And so, like, so, I mean, tell 115 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,780 me more about this, because I think it's just a it seems like 116 00:06:23,780 --> 00:06:28,100 the simplest thing, but it's, it's exciting for me. I feel 117 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:29,480 like I don't know enough about it. 118 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,620 Karl Hughes: Well, it's, it's you, you put it very well, and 119 00:06:33,620 --> 00:06:36,020 that's the best case scenario. Is you buy this business. You 120 00:06:36,020 --> 00:06:38,720 could stay relatively out of the day to day of it. You can 121 00:06:38,780 --> 00:06:41,260 collect the cash flow from it. Use the cash flow to pay any 122 00:06:41,260 --> 00:06:43,480 debt you take to buy the business like there's a lot of 123 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,520 cool things you can do when things are good. What I've 124 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,740 realized in the last couple years of doing this now and 125 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:51,700 owning a couple agencies is the hard part, is when either market 126 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:55,420 externalities change and the business needs to change, or you 127 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:58,180 lose a key team member. Because again, these are small companies 128 00:06:58,180 --> 00:07:00,780 under, you know, 3 million in revenue each. So we're not 129 00:07:00,780 --> 00:07:03,960 talking big enough businesses where they have full on, you 130 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,680 know, teams of multiple sales people, multiple production 131 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,280 leaders. It's like, usually five to 10 employees full time, and a 132 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,760 lot of freelancers kind of fill in in the gaps. And so the truth 133 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,840 is, they're also pretty brittle companies. And so unlike a truly 134 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,160 passive investment, or a buying a really large company that has 135 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,280 a whole operating board and machinery behind it, you're 136 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,700 buying a fixer upper. You're buying something you need to put 137 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:31,400 some elbow grease into, and then you need to continue to put 138 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,160 elbow grease into every so many months or years. So the tricky 139 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:36,620 part as an owner is you have to be willing to roll your sleeves 140 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:39,140 up and do the hard work, like, for example, in the last six 141 00:07:39,140 --> 00:07:41,380 months, I've been doing all the sales and all the onboarding 142 00:07:41,380 --> 00:07:43,840 with new clients at one of the companies, because we lost a 143 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,980 salesperson, and there's nothing. There's no substitute 144 00:07:47,980 --> 00:07:51,400 for me stepping in and doing that for a while till we can 145 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,340 hire somebody to, kind of like, fix pipeline and hire somebody 146 00:07:54,340 --> 00:07:57,700 again to do it. So it's a it's really tricky. So again, it 147 00:07:57,700 --> 00:08:00,720 sounds easy, and on paper, it can work really well, and 148 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,240 certainly the economics of it can can be very beneficial, 149 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,820 because you're not starting at zero, you're not trying to find 150 00:08:05,820 --> 00:08:08,220 product market fit, you're not wasting all those cycles 151 00:08:08,220 --> 00:08:10,620 figuring out, what can I sell and who do I sell it to, how do 152 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:13,740 I build the first 20 customers? All that stuff is like that 153 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:16,020 stuff is really hard. And I think that a lot of 154 00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:20,160 entrepreneurs think of that as entrepreneurship, and certainly 155 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,760 that's one. That's the first flavor of it that we all go 156 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,880 through. But if you can kind of skip that step and jump right 157 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,820 into a working business that is cash flowing, in other words, 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,480 paying money out every month, and has a successful client base 159 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,020 and has inbound leads coming in every month, it is a lot easier 160 00:08:36,020 --> 00:08:39,560 to operate that kind of business and stay relatively out of the 161 00:08:39,560 --> 00:08:41,680 day to day. But again, you got to be willing to roll your 162 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:43,960 sleeves up, deal with the crises as they come up, deal with 163 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,280 market changes as they come up. You know, you can't have a lot 164 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,880 of you have to be humble. And I think that's something that's 165 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,220 definitely taught me, learning to run a couple businesses at 166 00:08:54,220 --> 00:08:56,440 once. And you know, as we continue to spread this out, and 167 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,900 we get into three or four, it's just gonna those problems will 168 00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:01,920 just get harder and more things we have to solve, but that's 169 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,760 also the fun of it. I never look at it like because something is 170 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,240 hard, it should be avoided. My attitude is more like because 171 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,600 it's hard and not many people do it. That means we should try it, 172 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,820 you know, and we should see how we learn how to do it. So once 173 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:17,700 you get into this rare air where you're doing things that only a 174 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:20,780 few other people do, like, for example, by like, starting a 175 00:09:20,780 --> 00:09:23,420 small agency. Lot of people start small agencies, getting it 176 00:09:23,420 --> 00:09:26,060 to a million in revenue, you're starting to get into the top 10% 177 00:09:26,420 --> 00:09:28,820 of entrepreneurs or so in the US, buying another company, 178 00:09:28,820 --> 00:09:31,520 you're getting into the top one or 2% of entrepreneurs in the 179 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,280 US. Not many people do that. And then, you know, scaling multiple 180 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,860 companies to over three or 5 million revenue, you're now up 181 00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:39,440 in the point of 1% of entrepreneurs. And it's not that 182 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,540 that makes you better or worse. It's just a matter of, like, 183 00:09:41,540 --> 00:09:43,960 there's not many people doing this. So you get to learn some 184 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,300 really interesting things and go through really interesting 185 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:49,060 challenges that have no straight answer, no textbook answer. And 186 00:09:49,060 --> 00:09:50,680 I personally really love that. 187 00:09:51,580 --> 00:09:54,160 Robert Plank: Oh, yeah, and that's such an entrepreneurial 188 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,520 cliche. Is solving the hard problems. And I don't know about 189 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,720 you, but I since the very beginning of all this. 20 years 190 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,860 or so, like, I've always been, like, introspective about, well, 191 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,580 what do I like to do? What motivates me? Why do I keep 192 00:10:08,580 --> 00:10:12,720 doing it? And then, like, the people that I have in my orbit 193 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:15,960 on my like, partners, employees, things like that, mentors, I'm 194 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,100 like, What am I looking for? What do I like? And it seemed 195 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:24,080 like, early on, I really liked the persistence. Like, if I, if 196 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,140 I joint venture, to partner up with someone, and if one little 197 00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:29,720 thing didn't go their way in the launch, they just give up. They 198 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,720 say, off to the next thing. And I found that really frustrating. 199 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,020 And then it seems like there it, but it's, it's not like all or 200 00:10:36,020 --> 00:10:37,940 nothing, like there's a gradient, right? And I found 201 00:10:37,940 --> 00:10:41,140 some people that were, like, a little more persistent, but then 202 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:44,140 gave up, like, a few years into the business, when that got 203 00:10:44,140 --> 00:10:47,920 hard. And so speaking to you, it seems like the the ingredients, 204 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,580 in the in the in the bacon, the cake, or whatever is like, well, 205 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,620 hard work is definitely a part of it, but so is the fun and the 206 00:10:56,620 --> 00:10:59,860 freedom. And it seems like maybe some, some people get into 207 00:10:59,860 --> 00:11:03,180 entrepreneurship for the wrong reasons, and they're focused on 208 00:11:03,180 --> 00:11:05,820 avoiding the hard work part of it. But you're saying, well, the 209 00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:09,000 hard work means there's like a thinner herd, there's more 210 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,840 uniqueness. And so, of course, no one wants to be burned out, 211 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,960 right? No one wants that hard work without their award or 212 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,380 build themselves another job. But it seems like that hard work 213 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,480 like you can't avoid it, because there's also the upside of it, 214 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:27,380 of like, the flexibility, the freedom, the no cap on your 215 00:11:27,380 --> 00:11:30,560 income, and just the the adventure, the fun of it all. 216 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,960 And so do you have similar thoughts? Do you sometimes, 217 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,020 like, psych yourself out about like, well, am I working too 218 00:11:36,020 --> 00:11:39,500 hard? Should I just go get a nine to five or join a startup 219 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:40,100 or something? 220 00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:44,080 Karl Hughes: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. It's 221 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,100 funny because when we talk about these challenges of 222 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:52,660 entrepreneurship, this sounds very obscure if you're not, if 223 00:11:52,660 --> 00:11:54,700 you're not in the game right now, if you don't own your own 224 00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:57,100 business, like, what does it mean to have a hard time when 225 00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:59,740 you're running a three or $5 million company? Like, how hard 226 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:01,830 could that be? Carl, and it's like, well, here's the thing, 227 00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:04,530 here's what's hard. Going to your team and saying, Look, 228 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:07,530 guys, the market is not trending our direction. I got to let half 229 00:12:07,530 --> 00:12:09,480 of you go over the next three months. I don't know which half 230 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,580 of you it's going to be, but I got to figure that out. We got 231 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:13,380 to figure this out together and how this company's going to keep 232 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:15,690 running afterwards. Like, that's really hard, and it really 233 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:17,970 sucks, and it means that you're going to, like, have to let a 234 00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:19,980 lot of really good people go that you may never get back. And 235 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:22,220 they're going to be gone off and doing other things, right? So 236 00:12:22,220 --> 00:12:24,320 that's the kind of hard thing. The other harder things are 237 00:12:24,620 --> 00:12:27,440 waking up and realizing, like in the middle of the night, that 238 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:31,040 our monthly payroll is, you know, going out tomorrow, and I 239 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,440 have just enough cash in the bank to cover that, but nothing 240 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,020 else left. And it's like, what does that mean for next month? 241 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:38,660 You know, what are we going to make it clear? Is it going to 242 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:41,260 happen? And so those are the kinds of challenges we're 243 00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:45,280 talking about here. Would I ever want to or do I ever think about 244 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,040 leaving those kinds of challenges and then, you know, 245 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,100 going relegating myself back to getting a full time job now that 246 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:55,840 I've crossed this Rubicon? No, I can't imagine it. It's it's 247 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:02,040 simply too empowering to see my ideas get like me, taking an 248 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,060 idea, selling it to a company as a, you know, a customer, client, 249 00:13:06,060 --> 00:13:08,760 whatever you want to call it, and then executing on that idea 250 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,600 with a team, seeing that cycle happen, and clients come back 251 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,900 with really positive feedback and success stories that we help 252 00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:19,860 generate. Seeing that positive feedback loop happen makes it 253 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:24,020 just so hard to imagine giving up. I do agree that it's hard, 254 00:13:24,020 --> 00:13:27,140 harder a than getting a job. If you are somebody who just knows 255 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:29,300 you, you're you know, your only reason to looking for 256 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,180 entrepreneurship is you want a more flexible arrangement, or 257 00:13:32,180 --> 00:13:35,660 you want easier money or work fewer hours. Like this is just 258 00:13:35,660 --> 00:13:38,960 not the path. Like there go be a freelancer or something. Don't 259 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,560 try to start a real like a full company. It's just, it's too 260 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:46,240 much, too hard. So Anyway, point being, I can't imagine going 261 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,880 back to full time employment unless it was like something 262 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,980 like, you know, my company got bought, to have to go work 263 00:13:50,980 --> 00:13:53,380 somewhere for a couple of years, like limited time sort of 264 00:13:53,380 --> 00:14:00,300 engagement. But I do, I do appreciate that that answer is 265 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:04,320 sort of five years in. If I had known the mental stress and 266 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,620 fatigue that entrepreneurship would give me five years ago 267 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:10,380 when I started, I probably would have just gotten another job. 268 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,900 Like, honestly, like in hindsight, like at the time, I 269 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:15,540 was not ready to take this on. I didn't know what I was getting 270 00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:18,120 into, but at some point it was like the bridges were burned. I 271 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,680 was out here at sea. I got to keep going right like there's no 272 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,140 there. It gets really hard to turn back, especially again, 273 00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:26,660 once you've got payrolls, you've got people who depend on you, 274 00:14:26,660 --> 00:14:29,000 you've got contracts you have signed, you got to figure out 275 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,460 ways to do that stuff and execute on it and deliver on 276 00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:34,160 what you've said you will. So it's a long and complicated 277 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,220 answer and but I think that's that's just the truth of 278 00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:40,420 entrepreneurship is that it is a complex thing, and you're right 279 00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:45,040 that thinking of it as thinking of it as way to easy money or 280 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,100 passive income is not the way you get successful at it. The 281 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:50,740 people who do end up getting to a point where they can truly 282 00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:53,440 take a step back and make it more passive and act like just 283 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,440 investors or sell their company are the people who worked 284 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,680 really, really hard in the intervening times and did really 285 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,220 hard. Things and face some of these kinds of like mental 286 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:05,700 challenges to get where they are. So it you can't have the 287 00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:08,220 good without a bit of what feels bad. 288 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,520 Robert Plank: Yeah, of course you have to pay the price. And 289 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,040 that doesn't mean that it's an unlimited price or a price 290 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,280 that's too high, but there are things that must be done to get 291 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,260 over the hill, so to speak, and to be in more of an investor, 292 00:15:21,260 --> 00:15:26,420 not just, not just a dabbler, and so like a lot of what it 293 00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:30,320 seems like you're talking about, like, there's this mindset of 294 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,460 not dropping the ball right when you sell a company. Like, I hear 295 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:36,920 so many stories about, like, it takes, you know, two or three 296 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,160 years and so much revisiting, and it's like all this, like, 297 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:44,020 waking up, going to sleep, revisiting the plan. And that's 298 00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:48,100 like something like, I think that's like, the hardest part of 299 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:52,480 my mindset to, like, install and keep in there. It's like, you 300 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,240 think, Well, when you walk into like, a Disneyland Park or a 301 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,480 McDonald's, like, you're taking care of every step of the way, 302 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,740 and, like, if you're building a funnel. It's like, you have to, 303 00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:05,340 like, when someone goes through a funnel, it looks real simple. 304 00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:07,620 But then as you're building something, like, there's just 305 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,940 all this like, paradox complexity that you, like, never 306 00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:15,000 anticipated. And this idea of, like, if you could see five 307 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,040 years in the future, you wouldn't have done it. It's 308 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,500 like, if you were running a marathon, you're like, Well, I'm 309 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:22,280 not in shape enough to run this marathon, but maybe halfway 310 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,980 through, my muscles will be built enough, and then I'll kind 311 00:16:24,980 --> 00:16:28,400 of get myself there. And so like, can you? Can you help a 312 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,880 little bit with that mindset of like, of like, not dropping the 313 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,880 ball and making sure like that feedback loops in place, your 314 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,580 customers, your employees are taken care of, because it seems 315 00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:43,540 like I don't know how to apply that obsession to the extent I 316 00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:44,320 think I need to, 317 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,240 Unknown: that's a good question. You're hitting on two things I 318 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,720 think are really important when it comes to when I look out at 319 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,500 the really successful entrepreneurs that I know, and 320 00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:00,180 when I say success, I actually don't think of success as like 321 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:02,760 necessarily they have the biggest businesses, it's more 322 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,060 that they have the lifestyle that they want. So that's my 323 00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:08,220 definition of success, personally. But you know, you 324 00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:10,560 could take that as whatever you want. So when I look at the 325 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,140 people who have the lifestyle that they want from their 326 00:17:13,140 --> 00:17:16,080 business, whether it is a function of money, free time, 327 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,920 whatever, all of them have done a couple things. One is, they've 328 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,460 been consistent over time. In other words, they figured out a 329 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:26,540 way to just keep in the game sometimes, like I've met several 330 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:31,880 guys in here in Chicago that have owned businesses for 20 331 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,760 plus years and have been everywhere from three times as 332 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,660 big as they are now to zero. And it's crazy to see those swings. 333 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:41,200 You know, a lot of people assume that entrepreneurship, or any 334 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,600 kind of venture like this, will be a slow, steady, up to the 335 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,500 right line of like, you know, every year I tack on 10% more 336 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:50,440 revenue, that would be nice, but that's almost never the case. 337 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,380 That is the rare exception when it comes to entrepreneurship, 338 00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:56,200 the way growth happens, it happens in these fits and 339 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,440 starts. You have huge years that you double and triple, and then 340 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,700 you have huge years where you cut in half and you you missed, 341 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:05,160 you know where the market was going, or major externalities 342 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,080 change things. So that's one is like they're consistent despite 343 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,380 this roller coaster. And then two is they continue to stretch 344 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:17,160 themselves and do things that make them uncomfortable. So it's 345 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,920 easy, and I know a lot of business owners who are like 346 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,560 this, that to build a business to 500 or 1,500,000 or a million 347 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,380 in revenue, and kind of just coast there, because there's 348 00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:30,200 these natural plateaus that happen at different business 349 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,460 sizes. And it has to do with the entrepreneur taking themselves 350 00:18:34,460 --> 00:18:37,100 out of more of the day to day operations, and hiring and 351 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:41,004 trusting people to take on those roles, and also taking a cut to 352 00:18:41,004 --> 00:18:44,304 their margins to do it. So depending on where you're at, 353 00:18:44,304 --> 00:18:47,604 size wise, as a company, there are these points where you need 354 00:18:47,604 --> 00:18:50,304 to hire somebody that you can't truly afford. It means you 355 00:18:50,304 --> 00:18:52,944 basically have to say, I have to be willing to pay myself less 356 00:18:53,004 --> 00:18:55,644 until hiring this person gets me over the dip to cross that next 357 00:18:55,644 --> 00:18:58,344 line of revenue where I can go pay myself more again. And a lot 358 00:18:58,344 --> 00:19:00,780 of people aren't willing to do that. And so that and so that 359 00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:03,420 means their companies get stuck at these thresholds. And again, 360 00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:06,480 these thresholds are different places, 500k maybe a million, 361 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,820 maybe 3 million, maybe 10 million. I think there's a 362 00:19:08,820 --> 00:19:11,580 couple of people that define those thresholds. But either 363 00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:14,100 way, if you feel stuck, the point is, if you're an 364 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,800 entrepreneur and you feel stuck and the business is not doing 365 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,380 what you want, you have to be willing to kind of tear it down 366 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:22,580 and fix things. And that means making yourself uncomfortable 367 00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:25,820 again, going back down into these like, unknown roles, where 368 00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:28,220 you don't know if this is going to work, but you have to take a 369 00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:31,520 risk and try it. So those two things consistency and like 370 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,120 sticking with it, even through the ups and downs, and learning 371 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,580 to, like, separate your mental health from the businesses 372 00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:39,560 success and failures or whatever. And then the other 373 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,000 side is just continuing to make yourself uncomfortable when you 374 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,280 get stuck. Those are the two skills I like constantly think 375 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,440 about developing, because those are the ones that the really 376 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,560 successful people have done this for 20 years and have lifestyles 377 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,360 they want now tend to have, 378 00:19:53,319 --> 00:19:55,779 Robert Plank: ooh, yeah, that's that's great. And it's a fun 379 00:19:55,779 --> 00:19:58,539 thinking about both sides of the coin, right? There's like, that 380 00:19:58,539 --> 00:20:01,559 aspect of like, sticking to. Do it and be disciplined with 381 00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:05,519 mental health, those good habits. I mean, it's like all 382 00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:08,399 these successful entrepreneurs, I know they've got, like, a kind 383 00:20:08,399 --> 00:20:11,279 of, like the their goals, right? They got their to do list, and 384 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:13,799 they stick with it, and they don't just write it down as, 385 00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:16,499 like a New Year's resolution, like the average person does. 386 00:20:16,499 --> 00:20:20,899 They have these kind of, like stoic habits and the mental 387 00:20:20,899 --> 00:20:26,359 solidarity, and then what that ends up giving you, in this 388 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,779 weird way, is then you can, like, make those weird 389 00:20:29,779 --> 00:20:33,679 sacrifices and those kind of the more long term leaps. And it's, 390 00:20:33,679 --> 00:20:37,339 like, fascinating to kind of pontificate with you, and think 391 00:20:37,339 --> 00:20:40,539 about it, but I feel like I'm being selfish with the kind of 392 00:20:40,539 --> 00:20:43,539 personal list questions, and I want to make sure that we focus 393 00:20:43,539 --> 00:20:48,339 on what's most important you Mr. Carl, l hughes.com, and so in 394 00:20:48,339 --> 00:20:51,399 this conversation that we're having, what do you think is the 395 00:20:51,579 --> 00:20:55,119 missing question? What should I be asking you? I just don't know 396 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:55,599 to ask you 397 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:01,499 Karl Hughes: that's a good question. Something that we 398 00:21:01,499 --> 00:21:04,139 haven't mentioned, that I think is a little more tactical, but 399 00:21:04,139 --> 00:21:08,219 also super important to think about for all business owners, 400 00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:13,139 especially smaller business owners, is knowing your like 401 00:21:13,139 --> 00:21:16,979 knowing your finances. In other words, like understanding some 402 00:21:16,979 --> 00:21:20,419 of the basic lingo for Financial Health for your business is 403 00:21:20,419 --> 00:21:26,059 super important, and I'm always shocked by how misunderstood a 404 00:21:26,059 --> 00:21:28,639 lot of it is by business owners, even ones that are fairly 405 00:21:28,639 --> 00:21:31,579 successful and go on for quite a long time. For example, I talked 406 00:21:31,579 --> 00:21:35,899 to a guy last year and just kind of asked him the basics of like, 407 00:21:35,899 --> 00:21:39,499 well, do you have books in place, and do you do you know 408 00:21:39,499 --> 00:21:42,099 how much money the business made last year. And, you know what, 409 00:21:42,159 --> 00:21:44,919 all this, and he just didn't know any of that stuff. And it 410 00:21:44,919 --> 00:21:46,719 was like, you know, he knew there was cash in the bank, 411 00:21:46,719 --> 00:21:48,939 which is fine. And you know, if you're a freelancer, you can 412 00:21:48,939 --> 00:21:51,399 kind of operate that way. But if you're running a company with 413 00:21:51,399 --> 00:21:54,339 real employees, and you want to sell it someday, or you want to, 414 00:21:54,339 --> 00:21:57,219 you know, you want to find a way out to hand it off to somebody 415 00:21:57,219 --> 00:22:01,679 else, you kind of need a little more than that. So there's a lot 416 00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:05,159 of good resources on that. Greg Crabtree has a book called 417 00:22:05,159 --> 00:22:07,679 simple numbers. That's a really good, you know, kind of simple 418 00:22:07,679 --> 00:22:09,779 overview of this for for business owners. But that, 419 00:22:09,779 --> 00:22:12,479 again, if you're whether you're looking to sell now in five 420 00:22:12,479 --> 00:22:15,179 years, 10 years, whatever, get a handle on your numbers. Know all 421 00:22:15,179 --> 00:22:18,059 the lingo. It's going to help you a ton, because otherwise you 422 00:22:18,059 --> 00:22:22,219 can get really, you really miss a lot, both in the short term 423 00:22:22,219 --> 00:22:22,879 and long term. 424 00:22:23,779 --> 00:22:26,119 Robert Plank: Oh, yeah. And I've come across that so much in my 425 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,999 podcasting adventures, too. It makes people that say, Well, I 426 00:22:28,999 --> 00:22:32,899 know how much it sucks to have to learn these things, right? 427 00:22:32,899 --> 00:22:35,719 You learn these accounting principles and, ah, messing with 428 00:22:35,779 --> 00:22:40,039 my numbers and not my favorite thing either. It's like, but the 429 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:44,619 end goal is that, is that, you know, say you're 60 or 70, and 430 00:22:44,619 --> 00:22:46,779 you say, hey, built this business with all this cash 431 00:22:46,779 --> 00:22:49,539 flow, all this employees, if you want to sell it for this 432 00:22:49,539 --> 00:22:52,839 multiple great, because you had healthy numbers that you 433 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:57,219 tracked, versus, well, this business that maybe dies with 434 00:22:57,219 --> 00:22:59,679 you, or that you don't even get a fraction of what you want. 435 00:22:59,679 --> 00:23:02,639 Like, that's the trade off. So it's like, it they say, choose 436 00:23:02,639 --> 00:23:05,279 your heart, and you could choose it now or choose it later. And 437 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:09,059 it's like, yeah, and it's I'm still on that path, and it took 438 00:23:09,059 --> 00:23:12,779 me so many years just to even know, like, what my personal 439 00:23:12,779 --> 00:23:16,679 take home income was, never mind the business, and then just to 440 00:23:16,679 --> 00:23:20,159 get in the another mindset of, like, getting excited about the 441 00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:22,759 numbers. I used to dread it. I used to avoid it. And then 442 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,419 that's back in average land, right? The average person, they 443 00:23:26,419 --> 00:23:29,299 don't want to look at their finances, their bank, their 444 00:23:29,299 --> 00:23:32,779 bills, because it's scary, especially if it's not what you 445 00:23:32,779 --> 00:23:35,899 want it to be, but what you focus on grows. And if you can 446 00:23:35,899 --> 00:23:40,059 get past all that uncomfortable, uncomfortableness seems to be 447 00:23:40,479 --> 00:23:43,539 the trend in our conversation here, Mr. Carl, then it's like 448 00:23:43,599 --> 00:23:47,079 there's, there's many amazing results and achievements on the 449 00:23:47,139 --> 00:23:49,899 on the other side of that little bit of difficulty. And so if 450 00:23:49,899 --> 00:23:54,339 someone was inspired, amazed, encouraged by our conversation 451 00:23:54,339 --> 00:23:57,219 today, how can they find out more about you, your agency, 452 00:23:57,219 --> 00:23:59,199 these companies, what are some next steps here? 453 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:02,579 Karl Hughes: Yeah, sure. I, you know, I'm very open and 454 00:24:02,579 --> 00:24:06,299 available on LinkedIn, Carl l Hughes and Carl's with a K, so 455 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,439 you know, you have to look for the link or type that out, and 456 00:24:10,439 --> 00:24:14,159 then Carl, Carl l hughes.com as well as my website. I write on 457 00:24:14,159 --> 00:24:16,319 there about every month on things I'm learning on the 458 00:24:16,319 --> 00:24:19,379 agency world. You can find links to our two companies as well 459 00:24:19,379 --> 00:24:22,219 there, and all that good stuff. So yeah, I'm always happy to 460 00:24:22,219 --> 00:24:25,339 talk to agency owners who are looking to level up or learn 461 00:24:25,339 --> 00:24:27,259 more, or learn just how acquirers look at their 462 00:24:27,259 --> 00:24:29,839 business, especially if you're in that one to 5 million in 463 00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:32,959 revenue range. That's kind of our sweet spot. So happy to chat 464 00:24:32,959 --> 00:24:35,719 with people at any size. They're just trying to get to 465 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,480 Robert Plank: them very nice. Well, you're accomplishing 466 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,080 amazing things and helping people, business owners, 467 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,800 employees and and it's and you're doing it right, where 468 00:24:44,860 --> 00:24:47,980 you're documenting and sharing publicly what you know right on 469 00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:51,340 your website, on your blog, including here on a podcast. And 470 00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:57,220 we say that website is Carl l hughes.com that's Carl with a K 471 00:24:57,220 --> 00:25:01,320 and L right there in the middle. And that is. Where you can find 472 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,440 those latest blog posts, plus the hub where you can get to the 473 00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:10,020 YouTube and the rich chained trust podcast LinkedIn. Send him 474 00:25:10,020 --> 00:25:12,840 an email, subscribe to his newsletter, all those wonderful 475 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,940 things. That's Carl l hughes.com and then Carl Hughes on 476 00:25:18,420 --> 00:25:22,400 LinkedIn, where he posts about buying and scaling digital 477 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,040 service businesses. It's always great to add someone on 478 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,620 LinkedIn, and that way you can just kind of subscribe to their 479 00:25:27,620 --> 00:25:31,160 feed, so to speak. So that's Carl l hughes.com but before I 480 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,040 let you go, Mr. Carl, it's time for the scary part of the 481 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,920 podcast where I try to stump you. I try to put you on the 482 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,780 spot by asking you about a fun or interesting quote or lesson 483 00:25:40,780 --> 00:25:43,660 that has served you, and you've already given us so many amazing 484 00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:46,360 sound bites. But what comes to mind, as far as a fun or 485 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:47,800 interesting quote or lesson, 486 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,780 Karl Hughes: good question. So something that I've been working 487 00:25:52,780 --> 00:25:56,380 with my business coach and kind of personal business coach on 488 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,620 this last year is, and I don't know this is probably like a 489 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:04,680 brand of stoicism or something. But the way I think about it, 490 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,340 I'll just put it in my own words, is the idea that the 491 00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:10,920 business's performance will constantly be doing this, and 492 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,320 I'm making an up and down motion with my hands, like it'll be 493 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,480 going up and down and up and down. It's riding the waves, 494 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,920 right? How do I get my own mental health, my own stability, 495 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,780 psychological, you know, emotional stability, whatever 496 00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:26,360 you want to call that level, regardless of the ups and downs 497 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:30,140 of the business. And so that's my life's work. And I think that 498 00:26:30,140 --> 00:26:34,700 is honestly the life's work to do it, just in general, it's 499 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,120 like figuring out how you can separate the performance and the 500 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:42,640 the output of things that you're doing from your own confidence, 501 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,180 mental health, stability, super important skill to learn. And 502 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,340 some people have it more naturally than others. I think, 503 00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:51,520 you know, maybe I'm, I'm okay at it, but I could definitely be 504 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,560 better, because that, you know, when the business is good, I 505 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,320 feel good. When the business is down, I feel bad. That's got to 506 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,900 stop. That's not a productive way to live. So anyway, that's, 507 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,060 that's my like challenge and life's work challenge to anybody 508 00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:06,600 out there who wants to live a more fulfilled and just full 509 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,940 life, because that is really the work we all have to do. 510 00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:12,600 Robert Plank: Oh yeah. And it's like a almost like a warrior, 511 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,080 athletic parallel to it, right? Like if you were a professional 512 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,320 basketball team and you were playing the best game that you 513 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,420 could play, I know nothing about basketball, but it's like if, if 514 00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:26,960 everyone was kind of having a down day, or, like, a bad season 515 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,960 or something, would you like kind of do it halfway? No, you'd 516 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,600 like give it your all. And so we need to figure out a way to do 517 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,920 that in our own business, on our own trajectory. And if you are 518 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,920 struggling with that, well maybe it's because you're going it 519 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,460 alone, or you're listening the wrong people, or you just 520 00:27:42,460 --> 00:27:45,640 haven't solved some of these problems yet, and your very 521 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,720 first step is to get this guy, Mr. Carl Hughes, on your radar. 522 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,240 That way you can improve your mindset and improve your 523 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:59,920 results. That is k, A, R, L, L, H, U, G, H, E, s.com, that's 524 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:04,680 Carl l hughes.com he buys and scales digital service 525 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,340 businesses. It's so fantastic to have you back on the show, Mr. 526 00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:11,580 Carl, after five years, let's see you again soon, but not in 527 00:28:11,580 --> 00:28:14,100 five years sooner than that. But it's great to see you. 528 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,700 Unknown: Thanks, Robert, good to see you too. Hey.