1054: Divorce and Your Dog: Navigate the Tails of Separation with Attorney Debra Hamilton

Robert Plank 0:04 Welcome back to the podcast, Debra Hamilton is here from Hamilton law and mediation. And Debra has a profession that at first, it sounds fun. And it sounds like a sitcom plot. But it's actually very serious. Debra is an attorney who uses conflict coaching mediation, to help people in conflict over animals, she works to get it right for everyone, including the animals. And so we're going to find out today about what kinds of conflicts arise over animals, all these different situations that you might have not heard of, maybe you're even in it. And this is what led you to the podcast, because you're looking into your options, and just how conflict coaching works and what mediation is, etc. So Debra, glad to be speaking with you.

Debra Hamilton 0:48 Well, I'm so glad to be here, Robert, it's fun to talk about what I do, because conflict coaching, and mediation are two separate things. But they really help people resolve the conflicts that they might find themselves in, that involve their beloved pets, because everything is really hunky dory until something goes wrong. And then when pets are involved, the people involved usually go right into their amygdala. And it's hard to get them back into their prefrontal cortex. So they can rationally think about the next best steps for the pet, given everything going forward. So when I started this practice, it really was because I was litigating these cases. And if you take it to court, unfortunately, pets are still considered property. So the judge has a limited ability to create any sort of resolution that's going to work for both people. My practice, everybody leaves happy in litigation, or in like a directive or evaluative mediation, people leave unhappy and they think, well, we're good, everybody left unhappy. And when pets are involved, I really don't want anybody to move, you know, leave unhappy, I want everyone to be happy, because that'll make the pets life so much better.

Robert Plank 2:08 Well, there's some interesting concepts to think about right off the bat, right, that there are different types of compromises. There's everyone's I'm happy versus everyone's happy. And then there's also, as you said, that the legal system is set up where that pets are property, but what the emotions that you're feeling is more like it's like a custody issue. And so it seems like a lot to navigate. So where do people start? If someone says, I have no idea where to even begin to think about what my options are? what the possibilities are? What's what is in front of us? What do people need to know about this whole pet custody or mediation idea?

Speaker 1 2:51 Well, if you are living with someone with a pet, or you're married to someone, and you have a pet, and you still like them, sit down and have a really good conversation with them about what would happen to the pet if something happened to the relationship and you're going to break up. Okay, so Rob, you and I have a dog, and the dog came into the relationship with me. And if I leave the relationship, I'm going to take the dog with me. Now you might say, hey, wait a minute. You know, I love that dog. I've been taken care of that dog, I run with that dog, I feed that dog, I take care of that dog when you go on business trips? Well, okay, so what could we do? Well, if I go on business trips, you know, I could drop it off with you, that's great. Or if you want to come over on a weekend or see it on a weekend, we can work something out, I may never want to see you again, because we're really angry with each other. However, there are so many cottage industries that can help you help that pet go back and forth. And then you have to have an honest conversation whether or not the pet does well going back and forth, you really have to think about the pet, and not necessarily about you. But she can bring people in to have that conversation. I've done mediations where people were stealing the pet out of the backyard of another and taking it over international lines into Canada. So you know, these have been difficult situations that we're able to work out. Because what usually happens is nobody thinks about how the other person's feeling. You know, it's it's my dog, and to heck with you. That's that's not how your pet feels. Because if your pet has lived a significant amount of its life, maybe all of its life with your significant other, and you pick up and leave and leave with the pet. If that pet sees your ex, unfortunately, it's not going to hate your ex you wish it would. But it's not. And so if something happens to you, wouldn't it be great to give the pet back to your ex? Because that's what the dog would choose if it had a choice where the cat would choose. However, most of the time people just want to make a complete break and ever see them again and that's you know, something to consider as well. I never say never to any resolution and yet, if as you're walking home one day get hit by a bus and nobody can take your dog. If you haven't kept in touch with your ex, then a perfectly wonderful home that the dog would pick won't be explored because you haven't made that plan. So you've got to think a little outside the box. In mediation, we listen to everyone's conversation, we point out where all of you have common ground, which usually is a loss when people are angry with each other, I'm never going to think that you and I have any common ground, Robert, because I don't like you. But when someone neutral is in the room, they can point out well, you both said that the dog really likes to sleep late or likes to, you know, run or likes to eat Cheetos, or whatever. So you can get that common ground built up. So you can see where the pet can end up in a better situation.

Robert Plank 5:54 Wonderful. And so you're saying that we just need to be thinking ahead and thinking about the other person and thinking about the future because it is easy to just be mad at the other person and not consider some of these things? What if you split up and then one person dies? And what happens to the pet? And so as far as the like the custody sorts of things like what have you seen, I mean, it's it hasn't been like just any anything is possible. Like sometimes the dog goes and visits on the weekends every other days has been like really close to a child custody situation like what is possible as far as the end result? Well,

Speaker 1 6:32 I've talked on this numerous law, law groups all over the country, because they can't even fathom that people can actually have good outcomes, mostly because the only option they think they have is litigation. And there are seven states now that have created legislation that requires a judge to decide what's in the best interest of the pet. And it's my opinion, they're very nice people, you don't know if the judge likes animals or doesn't like animals, you don't know what the judges you know, relationship is with his pet or his you know, wife or ex with the pet, you're giving the resolution of where your pet goes to someone who doesn't know your pet. But that's an option now. And it's better than what used to be, which was they were property and there was no judicial requirement to figure out what is in the best interest. So you have a day to put forward your argument on why you're the better home, in mediation, or in conflict coaching, you're able to talk about it with each other, really recognize where the pet is going to thrive, and recognize that if something happened, you could always call the other person to help what if the dog gets sick and you don't have the money to take care of the dog? What are you going to do? Or what happens if you get sick or what happens if you lose your job or you or you know, you sell your home and you buy a place where you can't have an over 20 pound dog but yet your ex has a big backyard and could take the over 20 pound dog, you you really need to be more open to what is in the best interest. And there is no one on earth who knows what's in the best interest of a pet and better than their owners. But it takes time to take the time to think about it and talk about it. And as I always say to people who have PepsiCo please talk about it now while you still like each other. Because it's really hard to talk about without, you know, animosity when you're angry with each other. So I always like to suggest that people decide what's going to happen with their pet. In the event, something happens to them. And in the event the relationship breaks up who's going to get the pet. I mean, my husband and I have been together for 42 years, he finally got a dog of his own. However, I don't think I ever would have taken the dogs from him 100% Because he really liked them. So we'd worked something out, we would figure it out. And most of the time if people are able to get past the anger breeds get back into their prefrontal cortex and really think about what the animal would prefer to do not what I'd like to do to you Rob. Then the they find out what's the best outcome for the pet?

Robert Plank 9:24 Well, great and even you practice what you preach right? You have you have yourself considered on the on the off chance that there was a divorce someday, what that situation would be and I'm sensing a recurring theme here, which as you said a few times here, get past the anger that it's really attempting and easy to let the anger win and be spiteful and just be mean for no reason. But then if you can get back into the logic mode, and think about what the pet wants, not what you want and not what you're doing. You hurt the other person, then that can lead somewhere. And so you're seeing that that like an option in these Seven states is to take it to court. But that can be a little, a little bit of a gamble, right? Because it just depends on on that one court date. And so what does this mediation timeline look like? I guess it many meetings is it over a period of time, like you said that with mediation, you can be more discussion more talking. So like, what is the length of time in this process?

Speaker 1 10:25 Well, each mediation is different. And I really only mediate for about four hours a day. So I'm not beating the snot out of anyone to agree to do A, B, or C, it's very emotional when you're talking about your pets, because you're trying to be the kind of person your pet thinks you are, you know that you're a good person that you're going to do the right thing. And, you know, knowing that your pet both of mine, our nuzzling me that you want your pet to be in the right place with the right person. And if something happens, what would be the next best place they could be? And being angry and having a lot of animosity doesn't necessarily explore where the pet would choose to go. And when you go to court mediation enables you to have these conversations the mediator stays neutral and holds a safe space for everyone and reflects what everyone says so that the other one can hear it in a less adversarial way. In court, what the judges usually do, unfortunately, or say, Okay, so in my opinion, Rob is the better owner. So I'm gonna give the dog to rob. And that's it. And I guess, it would be nice if Rob would let Deb receive a dog, or if something happened to rob, leave a note that says Deborah would get the dog or if the dog gets sick, that Rob would feel comfortable reaching out to Deborah to see if she could help him financially. But there's nothing in writing that says that. And that's why I always say, if you have a pet, put it in writing. Now listen, if we, if we ever break up, let's decide that the pets gonna go with Deborah. But if Deborah travels for vacation, or she travels for work, or, you know, I'm not a fan of a week on a week off, because that really screws with the dog's brain or the cat spring. But I am really a proponent of if there's a vacation that comes up that you can leave the dog with your ex, if there's if you travel for work. If there's you know, a time when they're going on vacation, and the dog would love to be on vacation at the beach with them, why not? You know, and do it with all the, the understanding that they're going to take care of the dog because they have taken care of the dog. The dogs were a big part of their life, just, you know, be the person your dog thinks you are, which is a kind, loving person who understands the taking the dog away, I've had several clients who had exes who took the dog and said, Oh, yeah, I'm going to share it with you, I'm going to share it with you and then didn't. And the exes said, hey, you know, I've got the dog, they don't, I'm not letting them have the dog. And actually, that's what the courts have started doing now is deciding that whoever has the dog, at the time that the cause of action is brought is likely going to get to keep the dog. So it really, it really behooves you to make that decision, either using mediation, where it's totally your understanding, and you can do whatever you want, which a court can't. Or you do it before it even happens. So you don't even have to pay for mediation, you say, okay, Rob, if something happens to us, I'm gonna give you the dog, once a month, you know, once a month, every month, or once a month, every other month, or I'm gonna have the dog in the winter, and you're gonna have it in the spring, and I'll have it in the summer, and you'll have it in the fall. And then the following year will flip up. Whatever you decide to do, I've had all of those in my cases, where the dog stayed three months on three months off, and they chained to the seasons. So they all get the benefit of you know, the dog or the snow and the dog in the summer. So fun.

Robert Plank 14:04 Well, and it's great to hear about what the different possibilities are. And also this advice that you give of be the person that you your dog thinks that you are which you can be or you are at times and so why not aspire to that ideal. And if you have this decision early on, and you have this agreement and you get it in writing, then the cost can be zero because you have it written down. And this whole topic of money has come up a few times in this discussion, right about just like taking care of the dog. What if one of you loses your job? And so I know it's kind of a loaded question to ask an attorney like how much something will cost but is there like a cost range of like, how much mediation approximately costs or if it goes to court about how much that will cost or is that to to the wrong question to ask an attorney?

Speaker 1 14:55 No, absolutely. That's one of the greatest reasons to write have an agreement before, if you mediate it's usually between 204 $100 an hour. And I wouldn't say a mediation over a pet, a mediation over a pet would be less than 48 hours. And if you go to litigation, the retainer will be at least $5,000 upfront. And most of that will be used, you're not going to get any of it back writing motions and answering papers and, and answering discovery and providing into interrogatory fees. So you're looking at five to $10,000, if you litigate, and about 1000 to $2,000, if you mediate, and if you put on your big girl and big boy pants early, and just say, Listen, we can share this dog, or maybe we won't share this dog. But if something happens to me, definitely, I'm going to make sure that Rob gets the dog or if I have financial problems, or I have to move to England and there's, you know, a rabies issue, and I can't take the dog with me than Rob gets the dog, just thinking about it. And realizing that what's in the best interests of the pet is best known by its owners, not by a judge, a judge is a good second, but not as well as the owners. And that's why I always feel mediation is, is the best alternative. Also don't allow it to be done in an arbitration setting, because then the arbitrators like the judge, and he's going to make the decision for you always pick mediation, because if it doesn't work out, you haven't lost your opportunity to go to litigation, if that's what you choose to do. So I always say conflict coaching first, because I'll help Rob talk to Deborah, about you know how to do this in a way that he remains calm, so that everybody remains calm. Or you can go to a mediator who remains neutral and helps the parties talk to each other commonly. And you know, last but not least litigation. So you know, 1000, or two for mediation, five to 10, for litigation, and nothing if you think about it before,

Robert Plank 17:02 right? If you as you said, Put on your big boy, big girl pants, being an adult, I have this rational conversation before it's too late, then you can save yourself just all this throwing the money away, maybe for almost no reason, right, you can actually just get to that good outcome by planning ahead. And so you've seen so many difference situations, you've seen good and bad outcomes. What am I not asking you? As far as just navigating the this whole issue? Is there anything that in our conversation like you wished I'd asked that I haven't asked you about this? The

Speaker 1 17:39 only thing I would say is that, make sure that when you sit down and have this conversation, both of you are focused on the best outcome for the pet, not the best outcome for each other. Because it really is all about the pet. And if you can do that you can find the best outcome for the pet because maybe it is the best outcome for the pet to go with Rob, and that Deborah would see it once or twice a year or maybe not at all, or just be a backup. What the question that most people don't ask is what kind of outcome is the best outcome? Well, you know, your pet, you know, if they do well with transition, you know, if they do well with different situations arising or different. Or different situations. And what you really want to do is you want to make sure that when you're making this decision, you're doing it in the best interest of the pet.

Robert Plank 18:39 I love it. And that's a good reminder all around just that like what is winning? is winning, singing it to the other person or is winning having the amount of custody will probably not and it gives reflections to what a divorce might be like, right? Where like, say, one parents as well, I want to get all the custody? Was he really? Or is that just what you think winning is? And you just want to get the biggest outcome for you? Why not get the best outcome for the pet that's involved? And so what are some next steps here? Like if someone finds themselves in the situation? Or they're about to? What kind of resource Are you like, if they're in some other state? Can you still help or just if someone says, I'm the kind of person that is in need of solving this problem? Where do you come in as far as communicating with you and next steps and what you can do? Well,

Speaker 1 19:31 I work internationally. So I work across the United States and internationally to help people in conflict over animals, especially as a conflict coach and a private mediator. That's what I do. It's the only thing I do, because I don't I don't do the divorce. I only do the pets of divorce. I'm so sorry everyone. All of a sudden I've got cough don't meet me What you want to do is you want to get in touch with someone, you can get in touch with me. And if I know someone in your neck of the woods that does the same kind of thing, I will absolutely refer you to them. I can tell you that my office is full of people who I am conflict coaching, to resolve conflicts over animals without the need of an attorney. Because I'm just taking it down a notch all those reactive and defensive responses that you want to give. I defuse them for you, because it's not really getting you to the end you want to get to. So I work nationwide, internationally, helping people who have animals recognize that if they focus on what's in the best interest of the animal, they'll come out with an outcome that really works for them.

Robert Plank 20:50 Excellent. And as I said, Deborah, when I when I first heard about your professional, what do you do, I thought to myself, well, now I've seen everything. But this is a needed service. And it makes a lot of sense. Once you hear about the details, how it we should go to someone who is a specialist in this sort of thing, right? If you're dealing with like the divorce, and they've never dealt with this pet custody issue, or they only deal with it sometimes. That's one thing, but someone like you, you deal with this all the time, and you know exactly what to do. Especially it seems like how to do it without things getting nasty or expensive or scary, because that's out for the average person. That's always a fear, right of things, just getting too out of control costs and all these meetings and going back to court, it seems like a nightmare. And many times, we might want to just give up or not ask for what we want or even just make a stupid decision, just because we're afraid of getting making things legal and dealing with the legal system. But there are some of these alternatives here, right, which is conflict coaching and mediation to help people in conflict with their animals. And so as far as someone's saying, Okay, well, I wanted to have that conversation with Deborah, see if she can help her see if she can refer someone in my neck of the woods, you're just kind of see what I can do at this point. What's the call to action? Where can someone go?

Speaker 1 22:14 Well, they can go to Hamilton La La w n a n d mediation that COMM And I'd like to also add that divorce is only one area where animals come into conflict with people or people come into conflict over animals. So you might have an issue with your veterinarian, your kennel, your groom or your neighbor. When I started this practice, my husband said that niche is so small, I said, I can tell you that anywhere I go. If a pet is involved, there can be conflict, and trust and estates, anything can happen with your pet. So really, it's a it's a niche practice that anyone can reach out to me, I'm here in North Carolina, but I zoom mediate everywhere. So if you want to get in touch with me just look up Hamilton law and mediation.com and we're happy to help you and if we can find someone in your neck of the woods, if you want to litigate or do something else, we'll be happy to do that as well. It's always about making sure that the people who are in conflict with the with their spouse with their veterinarian with their neighbor finds a way to resolve that conflict in the best interest of their pet and themselves.

Robert Plank 23:25 I love it. That's a great message solve the conflict in the best interests of both your pets and yourselves. And Hamilton law and mediation.com is the place to go. Deborah Hamilton from North Carolina even though she will zoom anywhere. Wonderful speaking with you about this issue, Deborah.

Unknown Speaker 23:41 Well, thank

Speaker 1 23:42 you so much for having me, Robin. I look forward to listening to more of your podcasts wonderful.

Robert Plank 23:51 This is Robert plank from DF Why podcast.com forward Slash Free. Me and my team are super excited to jump into your podcast, whether it already exists, whether it's brand new, whether it's just in the idea stage, set up a call and contact us today claim your free gift at dfi podcast.com/free and we will see you there