242: The Four D’s of Reputation Marketing: Discover, Define, Develop and Defend with Pamela Gockley

Robert Plank 0:00 Robert Plank Show episode 242, the four ds of reputation, marketing, discover, define, develop and defend with Pamela Gockley, hey everybody, and welcome back to the program. Our guest today is Pamela s goklie, and she's a business owner since 1996 she's a speaker and a consultant, and during her business career, she created and built eight businesses, which includes seven startups and one acquisition. She has advised and mentored many other businesses and vigilant corporations. Award winning services include customer service, sales and marketing development. So Pamela, welcome to

Pamela Gockley 0:38 the show. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited. I'm excited

Robert Plank 0:43 as well, and so I mean having like, you know, read your bio, can you tell us, sort of in your own words, like having said all that, like, what makes you stand out? What makes you different? Well,

Pamela Gockley 0:51 we have a focus on working on your reputation, seeing the world change in 2008 we we saw a huge shift, because we do website development, so I do marketing, but we saw this huge shift from the way customers buy. So consumers are consuming, are consuming products and services much differently. And what we found were businesses were not making that transition so they weren't meeting their clients. On their clients, the clients level. Clients are so educated. They can go google anything. They can Google you. They find out what you're about. They can find out your your footprint on on the environment where you have your things produced, who you are, where you went to high school, they check out your Facebook page, and then then they contact you, and then you're not really what they found online. And that that difference is reputation. So we help businesses understand. I call it the four DS. You have to discover, define, develop, and then defend your reputation in order to be successful. And that's on a personal level as well as a professional level.

Robert Plank 2:14 Awesome. So lots of good stuff there, and yeah, and it's almost like that, like, You're so right. Like, can you resonate so much change where suddenly, like if you were to walk into a brick and mortar business now that, you know, everyone has smartphones, everyone has scanning, I guess that word is showrooming, where people would just kind of scan and do their research there and then, if it was like a bookstore, just kind of scan the book on their phone and get it on Amazon and then leave the bookstore, then the bookstore didn't seem to adapt and and so it sounds like you're saying that it's not just a matter of just bookstores or just brick and mortar businesses, but this whole whatever changes where now, everyone researches, everyone's informed, also applies to us online people as well, absolutely

Pamela Gockley 2:53 even more so, because, you know, there's nothing better than the conversation around The kitchen, you know, table and, you know, the last check of a consumer test is ask your friends what they think about your products and services. And if you don't pass that test, all the research, you know, goes out the window. It's basically a word, word of mouth and organic type marketing that's going on today, and especially online. Actually my my one company is called reputatis. And I call it reputatis because I feel reputation has been hijacked. And the only thing when you say reputation, people think of online reputation, where reputatis Is that your real face to face reputation. So we look at things a little bit backwards, because rep you taught us with the word us means us as a community, everybody knows who or thinks they know who you are, and then that difference is where you have to make sure who you really are is what they think you really are. So you know, when you're talking about branding, you're talking about telling people who you are, but with reputation, reputation is what people know you are, and that know you have to make sure is accurate. Did that make sense? Yeah,

Robert Plank 4:17 it did it. And as you're sort of explaining this, what, what the thoughts are going through my head is that, you know, I think that maybe a lot of people, especially us computer geeks, are focusing too much on, like, the the little things, or on the mechanics, or on the tactics. And it sounds like, when you're talking about this reputation thing, it's more like, it's more of a strategy. Because, like, like you said like, that word reputation all it really makes, makes me think of is, you know, like your your Yelp reviews, or your, you know, reviews on some review site, and then almost like, piling on a bunch of fake reviews in order to, in order to drown out the bad reviews and and that seems to be like, what the, what, what the common, I guess, I guess, thought is, but so what you're saying is, it's, it's not just that. Little, tiny thing. It's like this whole all encompassing sort of idea, absolutely

Pamela Gockley 5:04 so if I have a client who is an attorney, let's say and she has done a lot of really good work with families and things like that, and she gets a bad review on Ralph on Yelp. Ralph sorry on yell. But you know, her clients are looking at that going, you know, that doesn't make sense. That's not who I know. And then they go and they post something saying, That's not their perspective, because they really, really, you know, know who she is. So if you have a strong reputation, it'll translate online as well. It may take a little bit longer, but Yeah, as long as you you focus on that face to face, you know the real reputation and your real reputation always comes out. I know we're living in a scripted reality TV show right now, for some reason, but in real life, your reputation will proceed you, and you better make sure it's the real one. And you know, that's the first thing I ask people. I ask people, Who are you, and they're like, they're really kind of like, you know, blank faced, because who are you? And you want to make sure your reputation is who you want. In my first book, when I first did my first behavioral assessment, my assessment came back as easy, egotistical, narcissistic and aggressive. What?

Robert Plank 6:28 Funny, what? So

Pamela Gockley 6:31 once I realized what I was doing and my my problem was I was listening to answer. I wasn't listening to learn. Does that make sense? So

Robert Plank 6:42 I'm so excited, not really taking it in the way that you should have been right, because

Pamela Gockley 6:46 I'm a geek too, right? And I can't wait to help people understand technology, but people need it the way they they learn, the way they learn. And I wasn't taking that into consideration. So that's where the aggressive part came in, because I was a know it all. And I was telling them to know it all, what they didn't want to know. So I, you know, I mean, so I wasn't listening to learn. I was listening to answer, which is different.

Robert Plank 7:13 That makes a lot of sense. And so, I mean, so, so, I guess the lesson there is to sort of figure out your own personality and that and that kind of stuff. But, you know, you mentioned something that was sort of interesting that, you know, like, without, get, without, you know, politicize or anything. It seems like the there's, there's a lot of people out there who maybe get attention by by sort of being outrageous or being loud. And so, is there sort of a way to, is there? Is there sort of a way to get the, get the get the good and not the bad part? Is there a way to sort of be true to yourself and take a stand for something without, without sort of being too, you know, too, too negative, or sort of put people off and because, and I asked that because I don't know, like, with some of this branding thing, it's almost like the more I overthink it, the more I'm worried that, like, well, if I, if I, if I'm too careful about what I say, is there a way for Is there a chance for me just to not even get noticed if I'm too careful like that? Well

Pamela Gockley 8:11 here, here's what I found. And this was years of of learning this, and I'm old, so I can say that, but you have to really be comfortable with who you are, you have to be authentic to yourself. And if you're authentic to yourself, people will be able to recognize that if you're faking it, we'll pick you out in a crowd of a million you cannot fake it, because people know you're faking it. And here's my last bit of advice from an old woman, not everybody's gonna like you. And that's all right, nobody's ever gonna be not You're not ever gonna be liked by everybody. And people go, Yeah, I know that, but you don't you do you might, you cannot be liked by everybody. So as long as you're true to yourself, you're authentic. You know you, who you, who you are when you wake up in the morning, till you go to bed, if you're that authentic person, and if you know what, if you come off as kind of a smart ass, but that's who you are, people can choose then if that you know, as long as you're accurate. And I always tell, I tell the truth, and people don't like to hear the truth. They don't want to. You know, sometimes, you know, personal development is frightening to some people, and I understand that, but then they're not really a good match for me and what I do. But you know, not everybody's gonna like you, and that is the first step to to finding out who you are on a on a really authentic level, and that you are the same person when you're happy, you're the same person when you're sad. You know, unless you have two personalities, and that's all, that's a different show Robert that one. But you know, as long as you're true to yourself and your your authentic self, and you do. That every day, and people judge you. You can't really help that, but as long as you are honestly who you are, you will be comfortable enough, and people will really respect that, because, like you said, if you're faking it every day, I mean, think of some of the reality shows. You know, these people are scripted. They can't even read the script without acting like they're reading the script and they're not real, and we can, we pick them out. And that's not where I want people to be. I want you to be authentic and not be ashamed of who you are and be very proud of who you are. I can be really smart ass sometimes when I'm in that kind of mood, and people now know when I'm in that kind of mood, but they know I'm not saying it to be mean. I'm not, I'm not being I don't have a hidden agenda. I'm, you know, I'm there to help people be the best that they can be. And if I have to push and I have to carry my two by four, I will, and people respect that. And, like you said, not everybody will. Yeah,

Robert Plank 11:04 not everybody will. And so and so, you know, as you're describing this, what, what I'm sort of, what some I'm sort of wondering is, how does someone is there in like, an easy way for someone to discover, like, like, who they really are? Is it a matter of like, taking that own inventory, or is it a matter of like, asking other people, or do they need someone like you to maybe review, like their videos, or like, what's the easy way? It's just sort of discovering that,

Pamela Gockley 11:26 well, you can do it yourself. And my book, The reputation factor is actually kind of a step by step check off the box type of book. But some people want and want a little bit more help, but discovering your reputation, there's a couple ways you can do it. You can ask the people who love you, which I prefer you not do, because they love you. Anybody under the age of 12 will totally be honest with what they think about you folks that you work with, you know, approaching a very, you know, professional manner, saying you're not trying to do some, you know, professional development. You want to grow. You want to become more aware your personal awareness, which is a huge thing. And ask people, take them for coffee or martini, you know, whatever you prefer, and ask them some really good questions, you know, like, what is, you know, what is one or two words that when you think of me coming through that door, do you feel? You know, this is more of the feel thing. It's in your heart, not in your head. Yet I need you in your heart area. Or, you know, you just observe when you walk into the room, do people come towards you? Do they run away from you? That's, you know, kind of easy. And the last thing I suggest is called a disc. It's D, I s c, behavioral assessment. If you go online, you can Google that and get one for free, and it was weirdly accurate. It is a really, really accurate. It's a behavioral assessment. It's not a test. You can't fill it, you know, it just will be weirdly accurate. And I would, pretty much most people call me after they have the disc because they can't figure out why it came up. I was aggressive, narcissistic and egotistical, and that took a little bit more time to figure out why those words were assessed to me, but that's what it was.

Robert Plank 13:10 And you know, it's been I keep hearing like every now and then, that that everyone needs to take this disc test and that I need to take this disc test. And I don't know if that's if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but, but I've heard it enough times for like, I'm not, I'm actually gonna go take that because I keep, I keep hearing that like, by, by taking this disc thing and get taking this assessment in particular like, I'll know about like, like, you said like, these things that maybe, maybe we didn't think ourselves have these attributes. But it comes out in in the assessment. I

Pamela Gockley 13:40 haven't met anybody ever in my 21 years of being in business that didn't wasn't shocked at some of the things on their DISC assessment. I do want it every year. And when you it's a 28 it's a 28 question assessment, and you have to be in a business state of mind versus like a son or a dad state of mind, then you get different results. But if you stay in a business, professional state of mind, I take one every year, and you know, if you have like a the dominant is like the General Custer attitude, if that's really high unite, you need to be aware of that really. You know, people who are geeks will get run over by people with a strong personality. So do you want to win the conversation, or do you want to get results? It's a pretty simple question, and that's usually when people call me, when they have this disc in their hand. They're like, well, I don't know what. I don't know what's happening to me. Help me. So I help them kind of figure that out. Cool. So

Robert Plank 14:39 it's like that test tells them sort of where, where they're at now, and then you help them with now, knowing this, what can you do with that? Right

Pamela Gockley 14:46 and that you have to figure out who you're speaking to. So I speak with graphic designers, I speak with coding people, and then I speak with marketing people and and then I speak with engineers, totally four different groups of people. No, I cannot speak to engineers the way I speak to marketing people. And, you know, do I have to do that? No, but do I want to get really good results really quickly? Yes. So I have to change my behavior, because the only thing we can control is how we react in situations. I can't change you. I can't change anybody. I'm too tired and grouchy to do that anyways, but all I can do is change my behavior. And people go, Yeah, I know that. No, you don't. You have to become a master at doing that to be able to get the results that you want. And no, you're not selling out. And no, it's not being dishonest. You are just trying to get the best results in the quickest manner, and that's by adjusting to whomever is you're speaking to across the table. And

Robert Plank 15:51 that was a really tough lesson for me to learn too, that like I think in a certain way, and other people don't think the same way that I do, and if someone sort of thinks or talks or reacts in a way that I I believe that I wouldn't. Then, for whatever reason, I sort of think that that person's not smart, even though they are, they're just different. And then vice versa, they're looking at me, and if I'm not acting and talking thinking the way that they are, then, then they think that I'm I'm not smart. It's sort of like when, like, I saw some YouTube video the other day of like, different, you know, politicians on, you know, on all kinds of different politicians, but when they do their campaigning, when they go to the south, they tend to, like, have that Southern drawl, just because they're they're matching, or they're mirroring more of sort of what they're seeing. And what really struck me as you were explaining that kind of stuff is that you take, you retake this test every year, so it changes over time. The results,

Pamela Gockley 16:43 yes, absolutely. And you know, you get better at doing this, and people think they're inherently born to be a really good networker. It, no, it isn't actually skills that you ought to work on. Because, you know, like in the first four seconds of people meeting you, their first question is, come Can I trust you? You know, are you trustworthy? Are are you a warm person? Can I can I actually have a, you know, get along with you? Then their second question is, are you competent? Do you have the skills to do what you're saying you're doing? So the first thing people want to do is build some kind of rapport, or, you know, they call the warm and fuzzies type of thing. Can we get along together for more than five minutes? Or do we want to scratch each other's eyes out? That's pretty important when you're talking about a business relationship, right? So it's important to understand, like you said, and it is a hard lesson. You know, sometimes I leave a me going, what is that guy? A moron? And I think back over it, and I'm going, I was not communicating clear. I did not speak how he hears. I have to speak how people hear, and that is really, it's a skill you have to practice, and that you have to get really, really good at and do self awareness that comes with the self awareness part. That's why I encourage everybody to take the disc, because until you understand yourself, you cannot understand the person sitting across from you. Makes

Robert Plank 18:18 a lot of sense and and we mentioned, uh, you mentioned, a few minutes ago that you have this thing called the the four DS, the Discover, define, develop and defend, so that maybe when people now, people sort of know who they are, they can take these other actions. So can you kind of unpack that a little bit for us, the four DS and, and what that's all about, and what can people can do with that, sure, once

Pamela Gockley 18:40 you've once you have the first D to discover. Down, then we move into the define, which is defining your goals. I don't set goals. That's too much pressure. I define goals. So where do you want to go? Do you want to become the CEO? Do you want to, you know, move up and, you know, in your business? Do you want to start a new business? So let's define it, and then in the third day, you develop it. So what do we have to do to make this happen? So it's almost like discover is your past, define is right now, currently, and then develop is your future. So when we develop it, do you need a website? Who are you talking to? Who's your client, who's your target market, who's your target messaging. If you want to get if you want to move up in a career, you have to do research on what the next level of your company would be. Do you want to change careers? Do you want to change you know? So then we need to develop that. And then the last one, which is not my favorite one, but I had to add, was defend, because what happens when it hits the fan? You know, you have to have that emergency plan in place. You know, for what happens if you own a business and you know something catastrophic happens, or you know, you know, personally, what happens? You know, unfortunately you get, you know, caught for DUI or something. What do you do? So this is kind of an. Emergency plan in case something goes wrong. And unfortunately, usually it's not if, it's when, so that we have, like, a long term insurance plan of what happens when things aren't going good. And

Robert Plank 20:13 so I know that that last part there, that's not your favorite subject, but do you have some sort of example where there was some kind of catastrophe, and you had to help a client recover from that.

Pamela Gockley 20:23 I did. I take, I repair reputations as well. So, you know, people like Paula deem could have called me and we could have worked through or, you know, any like the athletes that get in trouble and with, you know, domestic violence. And I help people fix their reputation, just like you know, Wells Fargo that went through the the their employees opening false accounts. Those are the kinds of things I step in, and I help rebuild a damaged reputation, working with a doctor who wrote prescriptions for drugs that were, you know, went across state lines, folks who get caught with things on their computers which shouldn't have been there. So, you know, I get into people go, Well, won't that hurt your reputation? It's like, No, you know, now I'm helping people recover from a bad decision. You know, we all make mistakes. I don't judge people and, you know, helping with the now, those are extreme cases, you know, or somebody has a bad review on Yelp. What do we do? Do we attack that person? Now, probably not. You know, had a client who owned a motel, and somebody was complaining about a bug, and he calls me and he says, You need to get that off of Google. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm good, but I can't get things off of Google, and it's not gonna happen. And I said, Well, you need to apologize. You need to say we discovered the issues, we fixed it, and we won't ever, you know, we won't ever have this situation again, and we thank you for your input. So what does he do? He goes and attacks her. I had to leave him go as a client. So, you know, again, I can't make people do anything. I can just help them, kind of, you know, navigate through the waters of repairing your reputation.

Robert Plank 22:22 So is that usually, like, the straightforward process, like, if, if something like this happens that you know was maybe in the news or highly publicized, or, like, there's no way to get the P out of that swimming pool, so to speak. Is it just a matter of, sort of apologizing, owning up to it, and then saying, Well, now that we've made this mistake. Here's how we're going to correct it

Pamela Gockley 22:42 absolutely. And it's pretty much, you know what? Robert that simple, and people just get so wound up because they're so emotional about it. That's the other thing people get in their hearts and not their heads. Sometimes, when they're talking about their business and they say, it's my it's my baby. No, no, it's really, really not. You have to use some common sense. And you know people are willing to forgive a lot, as long as you own up to it. And you know sometimes you gotta start over. You gotta be humble, and you know you just need to want to fix it. And I can help people if they want to fix it, if

Robert Plank 23:22 they want that help, and that's good life advice in general, right? Have some common sense and and even if you're really, you know, passionate or wanting to make some sort of panic decision, take a second and sort of think about that. Yeah,

Pamela Gockley 23:34 get a hold of a professional before you do anything. And, you know, sometimes people have organizations around them, and something happens, and everybody in the organization is talking to the newspapers. It's like, Oh, my goodness, no. So you know, your staff has to be aware of what the policies are. Something goes wrong. Nobody talks to the press. It's pretty simple, but if you don't have that as a policy, your your staff doesn't know good

Robert Plank 24:03 to know and so, so if someone is says, Okay, well, I need to, either, you know, repair my reputation, or my reputation could be better, or maybe I need to make some kind of reputation. They should go to you. It sounds like so. Can you tell us about what it is that you have to offer people like your your coaching services, your book, whatever you want people to know about.

Pamela Gockley 24:23 Sure, first thing would be the reputation factor and the art of running red lights are my two books. It's a good place to start. If there is something in like if you're in an emergency, you can either you can send me an email, pam@reputatis.com or you can go to the website, reputatis.com and see about more. What I do? I you know, I work with celebrities as well as athletes as well as a business owner that needs some support in this area. And we found once the reputation process is started, you know, the strategy. Is put into place. You're meeting your customers on the level they are, or if your personal reputation is not in order, you might have some trouble making those transitions to another job because your reputation is in order. So we help dig in and give you some homework and help you reach your defined goals.

Robert Plank 25:25 And that sounds like all good stuff. And to make sure that everyone gets to the website, that is, R, E, P, U, T, A, T, U S, is that correct? Yes, cool. So yes, refu taught us with with a U in there. Awesome. And so, so, so, yeah, I mean, as you're sort of describing this, it sounds like, it sounds like this is the sort of area where everyone needs to, at least, you know, maybe they're in, maybe they need to tune up their reputation. Maybe they need to recover from this kind of kind of disaster. And it sounds like, from the advice you've given and the case studies that, that you've talked about and things like that. It sounds like a lot of people do the wrong thing. A lot of people just kind of make the situation worse, or try to ignore it or try to fight it. And so in the same way that you know, if you're you're toilet broke, you'd call a plumber, if the if the cops grabbed you, you'd call a lawyer. Then if you need this reputation, things solved, don't try to do it yourself. Go to the expert, whether that means you're going to grab the book The reputation factor or the art of running red lights, or if you're going to contact Pam and say, here's the situation, what do you think? So everyone should go right now to reputatis.com R, E, P, U T, A, T, U s.com, and either contact Pam or grab one, if not both, of those books. So thanks so much, Pam for stopping by the show and and kind of entertaining us and informing us and giving us lots of things that we can use right away and that we should use long term. So I really appreciate you, and thanks for sharing what you had to share with us today.

Pamela Gockley 26:53 Thanks, Robert. Have a great day. Robert plank.com,

Robert Plank 26:56 forward, slash, 242, that's the place you should go right now to get the show notes, resources and links related to our discussion with Pamela. Stay thanks and have a great one. You.