1072: Boost Team Efficiency: Clear Communication Secrets with Communication Expert Chris Fenning

[00:00:00] Robert Plank: Welcome back. It's the Marketer of the Day podcast with world renowned podcast guest, Chris Fenning. Now, Chris makes it easier for us to communicate at work. He helps experts talk to non experts. He helps teams talk to executives and so much more. And Chris's practical methods are used in organizations like Google and NATO. [00:00:20] Robert Plank: They've appeared in the Harvard Business Review. He's also the author of multiple award winning books on communication and training. So Chris is knowledgeable about growing a business from scratch, writing books, recording your own audiobook, being a podcast guest, starting a podcast, so many possible places to start. [00:00:36] Robert Plank: So what do you think, Chris, out of all the possible multi facets? What should be our focus today and how do you really stand out? [00:00:44] Chris Fenning: All right. Well, Robert, first of all, thank you for having me as a guest on the show. It's a real pleasure to be here. And in terms of where to dive in, I'm, I'm thinking what would be most valuable for your listeners? [00:00:55] Chris Fenning: And that could be, uh, how to become a recurring podcast guest or. The topic you mentioned a couple of times how to record your own audio book. That's not something I talk about very often. [00:01:06] Robert Plank: Okay. Well, I, I think maybe I like the, for the, the main idea to be the podcast guest and then if we have time near the end, that audio book thing, so that way we're getting to like the low hanging fruit plus the not talked about enough. [00:01:19] Robert Plank: And as far as the podcast guesting, like this show have done over a thousand episodes, but I've probably only guessed on maybe 30 or 40 podcasts. So I don't know if it's like. Mental block or just different context switching or what the idea here is is but just to get our listeners caught up guesting on a podcast what you're doing right here right now is what that is but as far as like the big picture the master plan why do you do it and what's the whole just strategy look like? [00:01:47] Chris Fenning: Yeah, so why, why do I guest podcast? It's because it puts me in front of new audiences. And as, as with most people in, in my line of work, whether it's communications or any other kind of training where you've got a, a key expertise that you are trying to become known for. One of the things that we're often told is start a podcast. [00:02:07] Chris Fenning: It's a great way to become known. And I agree. That is a great way to become known. But it's also a slow way or can be a slow way to build an audience. And so I'm, I'm fairly time poor. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I don't have an infinite number of hours. And so I chose to be a guest rather than have my own show, because it means that every show I go on, I'm in front of a new audience. [00:02:32] Chris Fenning: And that's how I'm growing the awareness of me and what I offer and how I can help. [00:02:38] Robert Plank: Wonderful. So, and it makes logical sense, right? That there's, there's that trap that I think a lot of people don't talk about or don't want to talk about is that you grow, you post on a podcast, you post on a YouTube channel. [00:02:50] Robert Plank: It says zero views, zero views, zero views. And when all your focus is on like just creating your own content, there's a lot of drawbacks to that, right? That you have to then go and get the traffic versus tapping into someone's existing proven audience. And then you have to always like think of new. [00:03:07] Robert Plank: Topics and ideas. And after a while you might be kind of repeating yourself or running out of the same stuff. But if you're guesting on a podcast, you can't repeat yourself. And every trip is different because you're having all these different conversations like we're having right now. And so to help people like break through and get this done and follow in your footsteps, were there any like obstacles, roadblocks, hesitations for you in getting to where you are now, as far as being on shows consistently? [00:03:36] Chris Fenning: Oh, absolutely. And I think, uh, I think the problems and challenges I went through, most people can relate to the first was a huge bucket of imposter syndrome. When I started out, why would anyone want me on their show? What expertise do I have? How will I be different from what any other guest has ever given before? [00:03:54] Chris Fenning: And those are very similar to the challenges we face. Mentally going into business for ourselves. So there was nothing revolutionary in the problems that I faced. Once I'd got over that and realized, well, I just have to start. And start with small shows. Now I'm not going to pitch for, for the, for the multi million download shows straight away, because. [00:04:16] Chris Fenning: I'm unlikely to be accepted. So I found smaller shows and then I, I laddered up over time. So I imagined myself climbing rungs of a ladder where every show that I pitched was either at or just above the level of a show I'd already been on. And so I could start with a very unknown, or in fact new shows were good places to start, where they were looking for Guests to bring on. [00:04:42] Chris Fenning: I'd apply, I'd get on to some of those, and then I'd use that experience to apply to other shows. And how I overcame some of the challenges, particularly finding shows to be on, There are two methods that I use. One is a podcast marketplace. There's one called Podmatch, and there's another one which I think is called matchmaker. [00:05:04] Chris Fenning: fm. Uh, I'd want to double check that before we put it in the show notes in case you end up on a dating website, but one of them sounds like a dating website. But both of them list shows that are looking for guests. And that was a great place to find new shows. And the second method was researching, both Googling and looking at what comes up in my own social feeds, because of course I have my network of communications people around the world. [00:05:30] Chris Fenning: What shows are they on? And if those shows are interested in communication, it's a pretty good chance that they'll take my pitch when it, when I feel ready to apply to those shows. [00:05:40] Robert Plank: Well, great. So two very, I mean, two good techniques, but also some reassuring mindset there, right? I love the latter analogy, concepts, imagination tool of just saying like, hey, well, I, I don't need to get on like Joe Rogan or something. [00:05:55] Robert Plank: I just need to be at, or the level I'm at. And if I'm not on any shows yet, then. New podcasts are great because they're looking for guests and it's a good way to make the mistakes early and ease the nerves. And isn't that so true with so many situations in life? If you're afraid of driving a car, going on a date. [00:06:16] Robert Plank: Going to that job interview, going to that first day of school, whatever. Well, if you haven't done it before, of course you're nervous, but you do it a few times and embrace the awkwardness and power through, and it never was quite as bad as you imagined it. And then you do it again. And then you can just remind yourself, Hey, you know, I was on these other podcasts and there's no way it can be worse than that other appearance I went on. [00:06:37] Robert Plank: And speaking of that, have you ever had any. Like really bad experience because I'm sure like there are our subconscious tries to keep us safe, right? And like if we're about to do something new and risky it imagines the worst case scenario for us So but I think when I've attended some podcasts, I can't really think of any situation. [00:06:56] Robert Plank: That was like really bad Like maybe It would be like a little bit awkward, but I would kind of get over it and not overthink it. But I'm curious, like, have you had, um, we're not naming names here, but any kind of bad or less than ideal podcast guesting experience? [00:07:10] Chris Fenning: Yes. There are two that come to mind. One, one was very personal exploration of, uh, of a family situation. [00:07:18] Chris Fenning: So it wasn't related to my work. It was being a guest on a business for dads. Podcast show. And I was telling a very personal story of, uh, of the challenges that my wife and I had, you know, getting, getting pregnant and having our daughter. And I choked up completely in the middle of it. I had to stop. It's the only time I've ever had to stop recording. [00:07:41] Chris Fenning: Everything else I've done has been a one take. And it was, I was in floods of tears and. In the, in the show, in the end, the host did a wonderful job of sort of fading out and giving a little voiceover and explaining what had happened. And then we came back to the story. So emotionally, that was an incredibly challenging podcast episode to be in, but also a great exploration of a very tough topic. [00:08:06] Chris Fenning: The second example, which is definitely business related was, I was on a show, which I'm so glad that the host sent me the questions beforehand. Because they made no sense. They made no sense at all. It was a question in 17 parts with unrelated things, with grammar that was all over the place. And it was one of the shows where the host had scripted out their portion and read it word for word. [00:08:35] Chris Fenning: And if they hadn't sent it to me, I would have had no clue. No clue what I was actually being asked or what they wanted me to focus on. And that's part of my expertise is being able to take those challenging questions and get to the core of them and focus just on one piece. But I was totally lost. So they'd sent me the info about a week before, and I, it took me a good couple of hours to work out how to answer these six questions in a way that wouldn't have just been. [00:09:02] Chris Fenning: seemed like garbage to the, to the audience. That was incredibly difficult and not a show I'll be eager to go back on. [00:09:10] Robert Plank: Well, sure. And, and so those, there's two good lessons in there, right? In the, the dad podcast where you got choked up, that's a reminder that I didn't have this aha until a couple of years ago, that there is, there's no sense in looking for the perfect conversation. [00:09:26] Robert Plank: And I found myself at some point just having a great conversation with someone, and then later on, just, I would feel my excitement level just drop off a cliff. And I would think like, oh, of course it did, because I talked to this person, I'm super jazzed up, excited, and then back to reality, but I would feel the deep sinking down, and almost feel like, Like, with the downward momentum, I would feel worse than the baseline before I spoke to that person. [00:09:51] Robert Plank: I would think, what's going on here? And thinking about, like, I should have, could have said that, or made that joke. And I realized there's no point in thinking of the perfect conversation. And at one point someone said something that was like, well, you know, That, that thing that you said that you thought was so clever, maybe they didn't even notice or think otherwise. [00:10:08] Robert Plank: And then that other thing that you said that you thought was so ordinary might have been what the, the host or the audience or whoever else thought was really amazing. So there's no sense in driving yourself crazy with that. And I, I remind you that [00:10:22] Chris Fenning: the ordinary, that, that, that ordinary thing, the thing that we forget. [00:10:26] Chris Fenning: Was revolutionary, or we just don't think is valuable. Someone will pick up on it and go, that one thing, like, what, what one thing? Oh no, that sentence, you said this. I'm thinking, Oh gosh, that was, that was the least clever or the least great thing in my repertoire. And yeah, and exactly as you say, people go, Oh no, that was, that's the bit that really helped me. [00:10:47] Chris Fenning: We are. You and I, other authors, podcast hosts, podcast guests, we are generally the worst judge of what our audience is going to find valuable. Because we think we know, and it's only when we go out and talk to the eventual listeners or readers, if you, if you write books, that they will pick up on the particular nuggets. [00:11:08] Chris Fenning: And we're terrible judges of what people will find valuable. So keep putting out some variety. [00:11:15] Robert Plank: Right. And especially those beginner questions, you think about the levels of awareness. There are the people at the expert level, but there's way more people at the beginner level. And just talking about those beginner questions doesn't mean that you are losing anyone else. [00:11:29] Robert Plank: Like, the other day, someone said, I've never heard of ChatGPT. And I thought, well, I need to go and record a TikTok about that. But uh, but yeah, my point of all that was like, when you got choked up on your interview, like I'm thinking like, man, that's some powerful stuff, right? They call that an Oprah moment. [00:11:44] Robert Plank: So even like getting, getting choked up or something, that's like, that could be the highlight. Of all those episodes of that podcast. And so speaking of this idea here of the beginner questions, like in these things that you do, right, with growing a business and writing books and podcast guesting, is there like a, is there a place where people are really stuck? [00:12:05] Robert Plank: on just something really beginner level and you're just like, hey, there's a, there's a way better way. So anything come to mind as far as just like a beginner problem that is just, it's baffling how it's not solved yet? [00:12:17] Chris Fenning: Oh, oh, I thought I had an answer until that last bit. So a beginner problem would be where, where do I find shows? [00:12:23] Chris Fenning: That's the, that's the first bit. And you know, you go to Apple or Spotify and just start scrolling, but where do I find shows? And the solution is Google and Google for shows. And you'll come up with top 10 lists, top 30 lists of a particular topic, and then start following the trails and the rabbit holes. [00:12:45] Chris Fenning: Um, but a solution to it that I only came across, I don't know, much later than I, I. should have done, I wish I'd known this sooner, is find somebody in your field, find an expert that you admire, and go and find the list of podcasts they've been on. And then that's your list to go after. Because those are shows that are interested in the topic that you want to talk about. [00:13:11] Chris Fenning: And I've yet to find a nice solution for how to do that. It would be great if there was a service. So this is, this is the answer to that second part of the question. It's baffling how this hasn't, hasn't been found yet. Wouldn't it be nice if you could say this person and then produce the list of all the shows that they've been on? [00:13:30] Chris Fenning: That would be an amazing service. [00:13:32] Robert Plank: It would. And you're right that there's like close approximations to that, right? Like there's lists and notes. That's helpful sometimes because you can search, but then it's definitely not complete. And then, Uh, iTunes is more comprehensive, but then you get a lot of other stuff that's like not their show. [00:13:48] Robert Plank: So yeah, you're, you're right. There's definitely a gap that needs to be filled. So anyone out there in podcast land listening, if you're looking to start a company and you say, Hey, what's the, the real. that needs to be scratched as far as podcasts gets, then that is it. Is not just a podcast booking agency, but a podcast stocking agency where you say, Hey, I want to be on all the Russell Brunson or Mike Fulsame or whoever that it is that you want to go and chase. [00:14:16] Robert Plank: And so you have all these fun topics and I'm also, I always love in podcasting and I'm sure you do too, embracing the randomness, right? And even like. The whole thing of when there are planned questions or there's things that you talk, and sometimes I'll ask a guest something and they'll say like, Hey, you know, you asked me this, but you should have asked me that. [00:14:33] Robert Plank: And there's the answer. It's very like, politician ish. And so I think that would be helpful. The redirect? Yes. Yeah. Ignoring the [00:14:39] Chris Fenning: premise of your question to focus on what I want to talk about. [00:14:43] Robert Plank: Yeah. And it, it ease, it, it kind of eases the nerves because it's not like you are appearing on. Like, uh, like a big news show, right? [00:14:51] Robert Plank: You're not on, on Fox News or CNN or something. They're not looking to, like, catch you in, uh, saying the wrong thing. They're here to help you, right? You're, you're both there to, to be, to have a benefit. That show needs the content and a fun conversation and get an audience and listeners and you're there to get some of your own. [00:15:08] Robert Plank: Thought leadership, expertise. And so, as far as, uh, we've kind of talked about, like, easing the nerves and the process and finding shows. And what do you do, like, as far as the relationship building? Because there is, like, warming someone up, and I'm sure there's some kind of, like, follow up after. So, what are your thoughts on the kind of, the, the softness, the vagueness, that the peopling? [00:15:33] Chris Fenning: So, warming people up, are you asking about, like, getting in touch with hosts and building that relationship to get onto the show? Is that the angle? [00:15:40] Robert Plank: Yeah, because it's easy to say, oh, send some emails, but what comes in the in between parts, right? As far as, like, well, like, how do you, like, maximize the, the, them wanting you to be on the show and how do you get good results after just all of that kind of follow up communication? [00:15:57] Chris Fenning: Yes, there are a lot of little pieces, and for me it generally starts with, or it certainly did in the past, my outreach wouldn't be by an email, I'd send a short video, 30 second, 60 second video, because it was personal, it got them to see like my studio setup, was my sound any good, do I look good on camera, am I doing this sort of up the nose shot from a laptop, so it demonstrated some professionalism. [00:16:23] Chris Fenning: It let me be a human rather than just being text on an email and that by itself went a long way to building relationships with some hosts who would then bring me back and they were keen to have conversations. [00:16:36] Robert Plank: Wonderful and it just takes 30 seconds to do it, right? [00:16:39] Chris Fenning: Yes, I mean probably sort of five minutes all in. [00:16:42] Chris Fenning: If you use a service like Loom, L O O M. It's brilliant because you can bring up the podcast's webpage, and you can record yourself overlaid on the webpage talking to the host about the site. And it shows that you've actually put a bit of time and effort in, and you're not just copy paste spamming every show that you can, which is quite often what happens, where people will just go, Oh, I'll just paste the same message to go on every show. [00:17:09] Chris Fenning: That little bit of permanent, uh, personalization. goes a very, very long way to building that relationship. And then it's about being a prepared guest. So for every show they're going to want a bio and a headshot and what are the key links. Have that stuff ready and ask if they want it. Don't just presume, don't shove information up at the host. [00:17:31] Chris Fenning: They may already have it, they may have a researcher getting it. But ask, do you want this stuff? And if they do, just Send it over to them in a usable format, not rubbishy in an email. Have a nice page if you, if you can. And if they say just stick it in a message, great. Do what the host wants. Make it easy for them to have you as a guest. [00:17:51] Robert Plank: Wonderful. You're in my turf, right? You're in my house, Chris. So, so when you're in my house, you could take off your shoes when you walk in the front door or whatever the analogy is. And, and yeah, and, and I love this kind of reminder here or lesson for some people of being prepared and, but also not necessarily being so rigid and sticking to it. [00:18:10] Robert Plank: Like it took me so long again to To realize that in the, the booking, the scheduling, the calendar, getting it on the calendar, I ask my guests for a bio. That way I just kind of bring it up and talk about it. And even like asking the guests to give me some questions, which is why we knew to, to mention to you things like podcast guesting or like audio books and things like that. [00:18:33] Robert Plank: So with all these shows that you've been on, is there anything that you wish a podcast host would do? Let's say there's some, there's someone listening out there who is a host of a podcast that you yourself will someday be on. What do you wish that they knew or did more of or did better? [00:18:51] Chris Fenning: Yes, some, some hosts do this really well, but a lot of hosts have room for improvement. [00:18:57] Chris Fenning: The standard questions that you ask every guest Tell the guest, give us some, some time because we want to give a valuable, good answer. If you surprise us with a, Hey, I, here are the two random questions I always ask. And there's some big mind bending ethereal thing or the incredibly deep, give us, give us a chance to give your listeners something valuable, because if you, if hosts don't help us prepare, all they're getting is shock value and a scramble for an answer. [00:19:30] Chris Fenning: And all of us should be in the business of delivering the most value and best experience for the listener. So if you're listening to this and you're a host, if you're not going for that shock value, or I want people to be tongue tied, I'm really interested what they think on their feet, like actually give us the questions in advance. [00:19:46] Chris Fenning: It would be very, very helpful. [00:19:49] Robert Plank: And that is a wake up call for me personally, because I have noticed, well, I'm just now noticing that I do get kind of that sick pleasure from making the guests scramble on their feet a little bit, because near the end, and this question is coming for you in a few minutes, is I ask my guests what a powerful quote or lesson could be. [00:20:09] Robert Plank: And I, I've just, I kind of, like, like you do, you kind of play up what your template is. You change, like, change it around a little bit. And I like to ask it at the end, instead of just saying goodbye that way, it's kind of like a one last powerful soundbite. I used to ask for a quote, but the quote's kind of superficial. [00:20:25] Robert Plank: And I say quote or lesson. So if you don't think of a quote, you can put that in. But then I have noticed what you're talking about. And I started doing that maybe like three months ago. And I noticed the guest kind of sweats and pauses. And it's. It's probably awkward for them, but it's fun for me. And I'm not realizing that might get kind of mean for me to do so. [00:20:43] Robert Plank: I will for sure in the future, I will take your advice starting today and I'll put in the scheduling there. I might, I might even just ask them to, to enter it right in there when they, they book the appointment and like leave it so that way they can. They can just have a written down already. I'm not sure, but that's really good. [00:20:59] Robert Plank: It's, it's. Give your guests the, especially the, the powerful, big, giant questions. That way they don't have to think on their feet. And so we're running almost out of time here, right? We want to, uh, teach some stuff, but also leave them thirsty for more. And I want to make sure we fit in the audio book idea because like podcasting all kind of interconnects in a way, right? [00:21:20] Robert Plank: You get on podcasts, it helps with your, your messaging and your copywriting and your marketing and your content, but then you're You bought, and then it can lead to like book content, but then you also, you bought this gear and it can lead to using your recording equipment. So audiobooks, how did you get into that? [00:21:35] Robert Plank: And what's that all about? [00:21:37] Chris Fenning: Uh, I got into it because I needed a very low budget way to create, uh, an audiobook version of the first, the first minute, which was my first business communication skills book. And I, I was time rich, money poor. When I started doing this. So I went, I thought, well, I can't afford to go and get a big studio and I don't have a huge space that I could permanently build up into a studio. [00:22:01] Chris Fenning: But I do have microphones and I do have a bunch of padding and things in my, in my house. So I found the low cost, super budget way where I made a little den with mattresses propped up and sheets and blankets over them to create soundproofing and used some of the equipment that I'd got to be a podcast guest. [00:22:20] Chris Fenning: Unfortunately, once I started doing that, I discovered just how noisy my neighborhood was. And, uh, we could spend some interesting time talking about what I heard my neighbors doing once I was recording in a very quiet environment. And so, uh, that's how I got into it. I needed to an audio book because it was another channel to get my message out. [00:22:41] Chris Fenning: But what I discovered was it is actually quite a fun process for me. I did enjoy doing it and I do plan to record my next two books as audio books as well, because I invested in better microphones. I invested in the software that would enable me to do the editing. And then I started to geek out a little bit and rather enjoyed the back end. [00:23:02] Robert Plank: Right. And just figuring out all these other things, right. Jumping into this other world. And you're so right that with the. When you just get in gear for podcasting, you don't notice that much, like, this car outside or this fan going, but boy, when you have to do the audiobook narration, you, you get a better awareness of the world and just like all the little noises and the stuff, the tiniest little thing makes, um, you know, it makes a little blip in the, in the waveform right there. [00:23:30] Robert Plank: But that's, it's a good. Fun kind of adventure story there of just when you're doing this business owner entrepreneurship thing, there's all sorts of things you just have to figure out, right? And a lot of people just give themselves excuses and say, Oh, well, you know, I can't afford an audio book narrator, or, uh, I, I can't figure out this gear. [00:23:51] Robert Plank: I might as well just not do it. But sometimes it's like, Hey, is it a hundred percent perfect? No, this is your first recording. Yes. And then you get better and kind of upgrade from there. And so. Do you record other audiobooks, or was this just for your own? [00:24:05] Chris Fenning: It was just for my own. The, the advice I was given was, as a non fiction writer, there's no better way to make a connection with your reader than being in their ear. [00:24:16] Chris Fenning: Just like as a podcast host, people are listening to you. They, you're in, literally in their heads, in your own voice. And that's where the power of narrating your own book comes in. And let me, If my voice was like this, then I probably wouldn't have done my book. So have having a voice that doesn't make me sound like a weasel is helpful. [00:24:35] Chris Fenning: Um, but that, that kind of thing needs to be considered. Like, don't record when you've got a bad cold. I have listened to an audio book that somebody recorded with a cold, and it was terrible. So, recording in your own voice is a very powerful way to make a good connection with your audience. If you have the time, effort, inclination, can get to a studio, can set your own one up, and so on. [00:24:56] Chris Fenning: I also know people who've had great success hiring out to narrators. Not, not my preference, but each to their own. [00:25:05] Robert Plank: And in this day and age, we have all these choices, but you recording your own audiobook and getting in your listener's ear, that is quite on brand. with what you do, right? You're Mr. [00:25:14] Robert Plank: Communication Guy, and you appear on podcasts, and so it all connects in a cool and fun way. And so, having said that, what should people know about you regarding next steps? What's your website? If they've been impressed with what we've talked about today, about podcast guesting and the rest, then what's the next step? [00:25:34] Robert Plank: What should people know about you, and what should people potentially hire you to do? [00:25:38] Chris Fenning: Yes, if you want to work with me, here is the problem that I can help you solve. If your team struggles to communicate with itself or with other teams at work, I can help solve that problem. There's a bunch of things that I can do, but if your team is struggling to communicate with other people, experts to non experts, or teams to executives, that kind of thing, that's where I can help. [00:26:03] Chris Fenning: How to get in touch with me? Come and find me at chrisfenning. com or my social hangout is LinkedIn. So look for Chris Fenning and you'll find me there. [00:26:12] Robert Plank: Fantastic. And communication is so important, right? It's in everything we do, if not more so these days with all the social media ing. But then as far as the making money, it's so great that LinkedIn exists and that in the last five, ten years or so, it's actually evolved because it used to be what you'd go on like a message board or maybe like a Reddit or have an email list. [00:26:34] Robert Plank: But then now, but then when Facebook kind of took a lot of the The wind out of those sails there, but then who likes to be sold on Facebook? Well, hey, there's a place for that. It's LinkedIn, right? Where everyone's, I mean, maybe not like, like hard selling, but everyone's kind of in business mode and work. [00:26:51] Robert Plank: Yeah, we go, we don't go there [00:26:52] Chris Fenning: for fun. Well, I do a little bit, but it depends on how much of a [00:26:57] Robert Plank: workaholic you are. Yeah, but, uh, but yeah, and we buy things on LinkedIn and we sell things on LinkedIn. And so there's definitely a place for that, but we still, Oh. have to navigate that nuance of communicating, and then when we get on podcast, same idea, right? [00:27:12] Robert Plank: It's that there's all these different shows, and you sometimes have to adapt what you have to say into what their show is about, and have come in with the preparation. But also have enough of the dynamicness, dynamism, who knows what the word is, just to kind of be up thinking on your feet and to just have these fun conversations that are fun for you, but also fun for that audience as well. [00:27:35] Robert Plank: So as people are going to chrisvenning. com, it's scary question time, Chris, right? We got you prepared for it. You said that I was going to drop the bomb of a favorite quote or lesson. So what comes to mind there as far as just something to help us out, get us excited, send us on our way. [00:27:51] Chris Fenning: Well, as a lesson, this came from my dad, and it's, if you want to do something, don't just talk about doing it. [00:28:00] Chris Fenning: Get out and actually do it. [00:28:04] Robert Plank: Fantastic. So, and what's your dad's name, by the way? Jeff. So Jeff Fenning, is that a correct quote? [00:28:10] Chris Fenning: Jeff Fenning, yep. [00:28:12] Robert Plank: Now from Jeff Fenning himself, you heard this. Don't just talk about it, go out and do it, and you'll be glad that you did. And the thing to do and not talk about is go to ChrisFenning. [00:28:21] Robert Plank: com and find out all about Chris and communicating with your team. about Chris and his book, about the solutions that he provides. ChrisFenning. com. It's been a blast talking with your friend about all these different aspects and, and it just, it's reminded me, you know, sometimes we dread things in life, right? [00:28:38] Robert Plank: We dread showing up to that podcast interview or going to that Zoom meeting, but sometimes that can be fun and having the playful banter. So thank you for making it fun for me and fun for our audience. I really appreciate you, ChrisFenning. com. [00:28:51] Chris Fenning: Thank you, Robert. It's been a real pleasure to be here.