1537: AI SEO for SaaS: Unlocking AI Search, Revenue, and Market Shifts with Apoorv Sharma

Robert Plank 0:01 He saw the AI search shift before most people even knew it was coming. It's a poor Sharma from Bangalore, India, and he helps SaaS and AI first companies show up, where modern buyers make decisions, which these days is inside chat, GPT and other AI tools. And Mr. Appur is co founder of dereva x dot agency, and he leads the charge in LLM SEO, which means we are optimizing for AI visibility, and not just Google rankings, because AI is taking over. So it's our time to ride the wave. We are here on the marketer of the day podcast with Robert plank, brought to you by D FY podcast.com so you can grow your reach without getting buried in back in work. But today, Mr. Apur Sharma is here to educate us about what might be one of the most important internet marketing concepts we need to be aware of the last couple of years. LLM SEO, so Mr. Great to

Speaker 1 1:05 meet you. How are you great to

Apoorv Sharma 1:10 hear all of that about me, honestly, and thanks for having me. Thanks for the introduction.

Robert Plank 1:16 You're very welcome. So is there anything that you think maybe I left out of the bio, or what do you think we really need to focus and pay attention to these days?

Speaker 1 1:28 I think the bio was top notch. And

Apoorv Sharma 1:30 when it comes to the word the attention of it, when you say Attention, does that mean about how business owners should think in terms of attention, or how exactly,

Robert Plank 1:39 yeah, what should business owners be focusing on? What are we missing? What's urgent, what you know, what's what's coming soon,

Apoorv Sharma 1:48 what's coming soon? I think the entire search behavior is shifting. So a lot of things, in fact, I'm assuming Neil Patel or even Sundar bachai is not aware of because every day, I'm looking at a different search pattern for all of my clients, or the client time that we have, all the ICP that we have. My mom, who is Indian, she does not even know English, and she is using chat, GPT voice mode more than Google now, and this within the last four weeks. So yeah, answering the question very honestly, I have no clue what's happening, what's coming next. All I know is very shifting. And yeah, we have to keep the socks up. Yes.

Robert Plank 2:35 Well, you are giving me flashbacks to maybe 25 years ago, when there was like, Yahoo, and there was Google, and they tried this thing called Ask Jeeves. Do you remember that? Are you too young for that?

Speaker 1 2:47 Ask Jeeves, I am, I am, okay,

Robert Plank 2:52 but, but they, and they so around, like, 2000 or so, they tried to say, like, hey, you know, it's awkward to go to Google and you type in, you know, two or three words, and people were like, I want to interact with a human. And they said, Hey, there's this thing called Ask Jesus, where you could, like, type in a question. And it would basically, US tech guys know, it would just strip down, like, take out the question mark, take out the filler words, and then it would reduce it down to just the Google search. But now we have the modern version of that, right? Where, like, if the average person, like, say, your mom, who has has better things to do than worry about computer stuff, says, I just want to converse like, I would like you and I are right now, right? I want to have a conversation. And with like, a Google search, you can't do that, but with the chat GPT search, you can say, hey, I'm looking for this recipe, I'm looking for this book, and then go back and forth, and it's a whole new world. And even if we are Google searching that they put the AI results right on there, right so we can't escape it. And so as far as like us ranking for these AI searches, is there anything that you think like? Are you really proud of us search like, if I search something in chat, GPT, is there something where like you or your clients will show up?

Apoorv Sharma 4:09 Yeah, we would show up when you're searching for the best real estate CRM for investors, or when you're searching for one of the best Android XCs hosting, we have multiple queries that we are ranking on.

Speaker 1 4:22 In fact, we are living on very good

Robert Plank 4:27 so you have these rankings and so, so, like, what's the what are the steps? Like, if someone comes to you and says, okay, like, we want our our company, our app, website, whatever, to rank, what's your process?

Apoorv Sharma 4:43 The process varies a lot based on different sub verticals and verticals, but how generally it goes on is someone comes to us, okay, I think I can just, I can dive in deeper in this particular topic, right? Yeah, if you want to, if. Perfect. So usually there are three type of companies that reach out to us for AI SEO. The very first ones are companies that are seeing that their ICP and customers search behavior is shifting towards llms Instead of Google, which is a very prominent reason to actually work towards aisu or LLM SEO. And that's a perfect ICP. Second category is companies, or I would say, enterprise companies, that want to future proof their brand again, a great reason, a great use case to work on. Third is companies that feels the entire idea of AI SEO as a sexy one, so they want to do it. Now, when I talk about this, let's consider the very first category. The idea is we get in a call discovery call we understand what exactly looking forward to? Are they looking forward to changing the perception that llms have about them? Are they looking forward to having more traffic from llms? Are they looking forward to generating more revenue, whatever the reason is. So let's say we talk about the money part of it. Eventually, everyone wants that, right? So let's say Robert reaches out to me, saying that, hey, I want to increase my revenue that I have lost meanwhile, because Google Search technician has begun. Now, what do we do about that? Very first question comes down to, do you have a good narrative about your website, about your company? Do you have good authority? If that's a yes. Second step comes down to, we asked by Google Search Console and Bing webmaster, we look at the data, we do our research, and we figure out the gaps, the competitive analysis, and ultimately, what are some queries that you can win on, what are some clusters that we have to work on very hard to be able to get some revenue? And third clusters that we should totally ignore. There are three major categories for this, and once we go out, the lowest hanging fruits usually take about 15 to 30 days to show up some results. So for example, one of our clients, they're into private video hosting, much like Vimeo, and we were looking forward to rank them for best Vimeo alternative over chat GPT or public city. We tried multiple things, and ultimately what worked out was when we looked at 5000 plus reviews of Vimeo, and we figured out the biggest pain point was people were frustrated about their pricing. So we started pushing out that, hey, our client, the name is gamlet. They have a pay as you go model. So now, when we are framing that gamlet is the best alternative to Vimeo. We are framing it from a perspective that they have a pay as you go model. So that's first cluster. We win that up. Now we move to next. Now Vimeo has one another problem, that once you downgrade your plan, you might lose your videos. So we talk about that third vistia and the multiple clusters, multiple verticals to work on. So we take one, we beat that up, we jump to second one, repeat that up, meanwhile maintaining the first structure, second structure, third structure. While all of this is happening, we are manually mapping out all the queries on what position are we ranking, what are the sources that is that are being used by llms to rank on that particular query. How can we change that? What content strategy is required? So, yeah, an amalgamation of research, mapping content strategy

Speaker 1 8:34 and execution doesn't mean very cool.

Robert Plank 8:38 It does. It's a fascinating process, and it does seem like there is a lot of work, a lot of steps involved, but I like your kind of, like, foundational thinking, right? Like it's like sometimes if I ask you a question, you'll clarify it a little bit for me, or you tell me that when you meet with a client, you'll ask about goals, right? You'll say, Well, do you want traffic? Do you want more sales? And then, even when you're looking to see about like, what say, like, in that case, say, Vimeo is ranked for all sorts of queries, you look at those reviews and say, Well, where do the pain points still exist? And that might be your way in to then acquire more territory, so to speak. And I imagine that there's like you said, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of like, like people involved in thinking, but I imagine there are ways that maybe this can go wrong, right? Especially if someone says, Okay, great. A poor told me how to do it. I'll go try it myself. But it's not that easy, is it? So are there any like mistakes or roadblocks that perhaps you see when someone tries to do this on their own?

Apoorv Sharma 9:49 There is so first of all, one thing about you said, I think SEO without clarity is just wasted money. So we realized that a long time back, and we're not doing that. For the second part, yeah. In fact, there are some mistakes that we have done. So when we started this out, we were experimenting on some websites that we had, including our own agency's website. So our earlier domain was derivate of x.com and when we experimented, what happened is we got banned, I would say shadow banned, from Google and from llms, then we had to move from derivative exert come to derivative exert agency. What we realized are making a mistake. But one thing that happened with one of the recent clients. Their name is Verito, V, E, R, i, t, O, and they are into accounting hosting for accountants or accounting funds. So now the problematic part is Verita is their brand name, their bees out of Florida. And veritu is a very renowned car by a very renowned brand in India, Mahindra. So we were talking about how veritu is one of the fastest amongst the industry, and they have

Speaker 1 10:59 the lowest downtime. What happened was

Apoorv Sharma 11:05 we worked about five to six different articles on that one landing page, and I remember two exact PR articles when we check next, when we're searching about the same query. Google was thinking that we're talking about Verita car so now it says that Minecraft are has 0% uptime, sorry, downtime, and it's sort of the fastest in the category. So I think there's this very amusing thing. When Google was building up back in 2000 I have heard of it, not experienced it, but they were facing this immense problem about when Robert is searching for hot dog, as in the food category, and when a group is searching for the hot dog, my dog is hot in that particular category. How should Google Take it? What result should Google give? This is where the semantic part comes in. Everything kicks in, right? So this is something we realized very recently that you have to think of you have to check all your players. You had have to check all your points before you actually create a content piece, create a landing page or create a content strategy, because that five to six content pieces that we have published that effed up the entire persona that we were trying to build our own vehicle, so now we had to work on something else to remove that person of us and bring on something else.

Robert Plank 12:29 Oh, wow. So yeah. So there are ways that that can go wrong. And when I speak to SEO people, they're all about, like, tracking right and going back and say, you you rank for a certain query. You see how that works over time, right? Do I rank? And then does it fall off? Or am I climbing up in the ranking? Or if I ask the LLM like, what are the top five video hosting providers and Vimeos in there? And then your client like, do you move up the rank? So I can see the the value in the obsession, so to speak, right? And you say, well, if I'm if I'm ranking for the wrong thing, or if it's getting mixed up for something else, then that is a problem to be solved this month. And so you, it seems like quite a fun adventure that you've been on solving these problems for companies. And I'm curious about, like your own struggles. Where have you had difficulty in your company or in your own personal journey? Where are those

Apoorv Sharma 13:33 struggles? I wouldn't say struggles, but there are some certain angles that we have been trying to conquer for a long time now. So when derivative Expo started, there was no AI SEO as such. We were doing traditional SEO. Now there is an immense competition when it comes to SEO, because there are multiple agencies out there, okay? And I will specifically target Indian audience and Dubai audience initially, and there's a specific market rate that, hey, if I have to do SEO for your company, XYZ is the goal, they might pay me $1,000 per month, or $2,000 per month. That's the gap. Now the problem is, from an agency level, on a business level, it's quite hard to sustain, because you have to build a team, you have to do a lot of content, lot of PR, a lot

Speaker 1 14:24 of different things, with aisu coming to picture,

Apoorv Sharma 14:29 because a lot of, I think the work is almost 10x of what we used to do with traditional SEO. So now the things, pricing is going up, but people are not very much acceptable in the sense, Hey, what is the difference between traditional SEO, AI SEO? If this is the difference, why should I pay so much more? If, if x, then y? So I think the market is still quite price sensitive, because they're still trying to understand. A very good example of that would be about three months. Back in India or in Dubai or even in us, people were mostly tilted towards using chat GPT for their searches. Now that search behavior has been shifted to Gemini, or I would say Google again, because Google has launched Google AI, so if someone has paid me to optimize for their chat GPT searches about three months back. Now the entire search behavior has shifted again to Gemini. So they're thinking about, is it the right time to invest or should we should we just wait? So I think we are still tackling with the mindset, what is AI SEO? How do we define that? Should we invest in it right now? Should we wait? If we are investing in it right now, what platform should we pick up,

Speaker 1 15:42 and so on. So I think

Apoorv Sharma 15:45 this understanding market that that's one of the struggles that we have,

Robert Plank 15:50 oh yeah, and it changes so fast, doesn't it's like the Warren Buffett says, you know, when people talk about, like, putting their money in this in the stock market, it goes crazy and up and down, and people say, Oh, I should, I should wait and time it so that way when the stock market goes down, I could put my money in and it shoots right up. And he said, has this saying that time in the market beats timing the market, and when the way that you talk about as fast as AI goes, have I have similar thoughts and feelings, right? That like, Well, today, chat, GPT, tomorrow, Gemini, it might change so much, but if you're waiting around for it to make sense, it might never make sense, right? We're all figuring it out and and so you get in, and then you adapt as you go, especially with the help of you and your team at derivate x. And so do you think that is, Is there perhaps, like a low hanging fruit when it comes to this? Ai SEO, like, what comes to mind is, what's great about you is, you're here on a podcast, right? And sometimes people can put out articles or blog posts, but here you are as a really authoritative source, and we're having a conversation and answering lots of questions that we can take that transcript and put it into other ways. So do you think is there anything that you wish your AI SEO clients knew about like a secret weapon, such as appearing on a podcast?

Apoorv Sharma 17:21 I think that would be

Speaker 1 17:25 two things.

Apoorv Sharma 17:26 First of all, understanding that top of the funnel content is almost dead. If I'm writing an article about what is black coffee, there's a very high chance no one will read it, because people will just ask chat, GPT or Google AI more directly. So what people should have known, I think target, middle of the funnel, or bottom of the funnel, Mofo, is what I would consider it. And second, just go to a Google Search Console, export the queries you're ranking in and in Google Sheets, or whatever tool that you use look at all the queries that have more than five or six words. Those are the queries you should target first, or you should check yourself first. I think these are lowest hanging fruits when it comes down to if you want to see yourself ranking for the for a certain query,

Speaker 1 18:16 you can do this within three or four days.

Robert Plank 18:21 Who I like it. So build that, that spreadsheet, look at Google Search Console and and seek the long tail, right? Don't say, what is black coffee, but who puts out the best green mushroom coffee that's organic in Bangalore, India. And then if someone's searching that like, boy, that's someone who, who you really want, who's really targeted and looking for you, versus who is even searching for for what is black coffee, right? That's not a very serious buyer. So there is a lot to figure out here, and it's been quite a fascinating conversation with you. And do you think there might be a missing question that I should be asking you, I just don't know to ask you.

Speaker 1 19:09 I think one question that

Apoorv Sharma 19:13 everyone who's coming as a client, as a potential client, should ask is, how exactly are we tracking the impact of it? How exactly are we associating AISC with revenue? I think this is something a lot of all the sales call that I have done on my team has done, about three or 5% of folks ask this question about revenue. Mostly it's all about, how do we get ranked in the certain query, or maybe multiple 1000 reasons. So I think you're associating AI SEO, or LLM SEO, Geu, with revenue. That would be one question that everyone who wants to get into this

Speaker 1 19:52 should ask, yes.

Robert Plank 19:53 So how does it lead to money, and how can you track it? And it seems like the if, when I do search. Chat GBT, and I do click at least, they pass that the tracking code with that, right? They pass the UTM and say, hey, it came from chat GBT. But we know that that's not always passed along, right? Especially if someone like is looking for an answer and it leads to some third party blog posts, or they find your company name like, you can't track all of it, but you do your best, and you're saying that many of these questions that we're asking do not have quick, easy answers, right? How do I rank in chat? GPT, well, rank for what and what, maybe hundreds or 1000s of queries, and it's a big problem to solve, but that is why we should not go it alone, right? That is why we should have this conversation with Mr. Apoorv Sharma and his team at derivate x dot agency. And as far as taking those next steps, if someone is curious or fascinated about this world of geo and they are someone who should be speaking to you who are your people, and if they are curious, where should they go?

Apoorv Sharma 21:06 So sales is mostly done by me, so I am your people. And second part, you can reach out to us via a website, derivatives or agency, or I live and die on Twitter. So you can just reach out to me on Twitter, and that's the best place.

Robert Plank 21:23 Oh, very nice. And on Twitter, that is a, p, O, O, R, V, S, H, R, M, and he posts and talks about AI visibility for SaaS. He helps SaaS brands show up in chat, G, P, T, Gemini, Google and Claude, that's LLM SEO, AI, visibility and organic growth. And that website is derivate x dot agency, and they will help you get discovered and recommended. When buyers ask AI about you or about your company or your services or the problems you solve, they say that you're supposed to get in front of a hungry crowd, and if they're ignoring Google more and more, if you're like a poor mother who talks to chat GBT, it's way more fun to do it that way. Or even if you do that Google search, they slap the AI results above the regular search. You can't ignore this, and SEO improves credibility, but now AI is taking over, because buyers ask AI for recommendations, comparisons, alternatives and best tools, lists and AI answers. Prefer those brands with consistent positioning and strong third party evidence, and if AI does not trust you, then it fills in that gap with your competitors. So you need the help of a poor sharma's team at derivate x dot agency, so go there and contact him, have that conversation, and if you're a Twitter person, a, p, O, O, R, V, S, H, R, M, to see what he is talking about and what has him excited lately? Before I let you go, Mr. A poor Sharma, as we're headed to derivate x dot agency, it is time for the scary part of the podcast where I try to make you panic. I try to make you afraid by asking you about a fun or interesting quote or lesson. So what comes to mind as far as a fun or interesting quote or lesson?

Apoorv Sharma 23:31 Okay, okay, I think I have an example that you can pick and everyone should know of let's consider Google is a library, and this library has a lot of books, which is websites, and each of the website is sitting on a certain shelf, or a shelf space. You can call that particular shelf a vertical so for example, let's say 10 books are on the SAS vertical, 10 books are on the T to C vertical. When you're talking about the library, everyone is fighting for the shelf space to be on the first position. Ai SEO is the librarian working in the same library, and now you're not fighting to be the first book in the shelf space. You're fighting to be able to train the Liberian that whenever someone is searching for a certain query or certain demand, you should pick up this book and give to the buyer. So, yeah, I think concisely, good SEO right now is good product marketing in disguise, with just good narrative and

Speaker 1 24:44 talking more about

Apoorv Sharma 24:46 what you have, what you don't have, your pros and your cons, all with confidence. So yeah,

Robert Plank 24:55 very nice. So get that librarian to recommend you to the right people and. The place to get started on that journey is derivate x dot agency. They are an AI SEO marketing agency for SaaS companies, LLM SEO and AI search optimization, Mr. Appur of Sharma. It's been entertaining and quite an education from you about what we should know about paying attention to the future of search and SEO and AI and geo and all that. So thank you for being here and for helping us out. Really appreciate you. You're a wonderful person.

Apoorv Sharma 25:31 Thank you so much for having me, Robert, and I love your articulation. You have been the best podcast host I've ever seen.

Robert Plank 25:38 So yes, all right. You humble me, sir. Thank you very much. Applause.