196: Generate Targeted Leads and Put Sales in the Pipeline: Outbound Email Marketing, Phone Closing and Objection Handling with Dan Englander

Robert Plank 0:00 Robert Plank Show, episode 196 generate targeted leads and put sales in the pipeline, outbound, email marketing, phone closing and objection handling with Dan Englander. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Robert Plank show, where we talk about making money and building an online business. Our guest today is Dan Englander, and he's the founder of sales schema, where he helps his clients win more deals and grow their existing accounts. Now, previously, he was the first employee at the animation studio idea rocket, where he brought the firm from zero to seven figures, including dozens of Fortune 500 Dan is the author of mastering account management and the B to B sales blueprint. He lives in New York. Dan, welcome to the show. Hey,

Dan Englander 0:44 Robert, thanks for having me on.

Robert Plank 0:46 I'm super glad that you're on. And so, I mean, what is the focus on your business these days? Like I know that we talked about, you have these books, you have this animation studio, you have this place called sales schema. So I mean, what is your current focus as far as making money and growing that business? Yeah,

Dan Englander 1:02 absolutely, good question. So basically, my focus is on helping primarily agency owners or people selling project based businesses or project based services a win more clients and grow their existing accounts. So the business kind of has two sides. On one hand, I'm helping generate leads for agency owners through outbound email. On the other hand, I'm kind of coaching them to close the leads and the leads and actually kind of stay accountable to helping them win the business that I'm bringing in. So that's basically what I do at sales team. And what are what our team helps our clients with

Robert Plank 1:31 cool and then so, so you mentioned that you do a lot of like, work with, like, closing the leads and and dealing with email marketing. Like, is this where a lot of people need help? Are you seeing a lot of people lacking in this email area and in the like, phone closing and stuff like that?

Dan Englander 1:50 Yeah, I think it's an area where a lot of people need help. And I think, you know, for your audience, which seems to be primarily focused on sort of, you know, marketing funnels and marketing automation, it's an area that I think can can create a lot, a lot of cognitive dissonance. So what's happening is, if you're in marketing land, you're kind of in a different area than sales land. And if you are in Marketing Land and you are creating something that's completely automated and where you don't need to involve a human being, then, that's great. That's not my turf, except on a tangential level. But that's great. But where I see a lot of problems is when people, who are traditional, you know, marketing funnel, people try to get into sales land, then they can sort of bring one type of learning into that, and it create and it can create problems. So, you know, to get specific one problem that I see a lot, and there are many with sales so I like to kind of give myself a constraint and kind of specialize this to your audience. Is a lot of the times people will try to, you know, create, like, arbitrary scarcity, you know, in a sales email or even on a sales call, say, you know, if you if you don't buy from us, within two weeks, the price goes up. The problem is, what works when you kind of have this detached audience, it becomes a little bit alienating when you're dealing one on one. So that's one problem that I've encountered a lot, and that I try to help people through. Because, you know, at the end of the day, it's very hard to completely and to automate human empathy, and that's really what, what sales entails. And

Robert Plank 3:22 so I mean, is there an easier solution? Because, like, you know, I've seen some of that arbitrary scarcity, and I use it in my business as well. But sometimes I feel like, like, there are times where no matter how hard I sell, or no matter how much I like connect with emotionally, like, there's just that, one part of the crowd that will only respond if I have some sort of deadline. But then, on the other hand, like you said, like it doesn't translate too well for one on one, and sometimes I'm worried that if I use that gimmick too often, then they'll stop paying attention even to that. So I mean, do you have any thoughts in that area?

Dan Englander 3:57 Well, first of all, I wouldn't think of it necessarily as a gimmick. And I don't think it means you can't use scarcity at all. I just think that if you're using it on a sales page, that's one thing. You don't have to have a great reason for it. It helps if you can, though, but if you're using it in a one on one basis, when you're on the sales call, you need to be able to tell people why there's scarcity. Otherwise, it's sort of like we've built all this trust. We've had this great conversation. You've understood my needs, you've proposed the solution, and now you're saying that if I need more than a few days to decide, then you're just going to hike the price on me for no reason. That doesn't sound very trust inducing. Maybe I should go with somebody else. But if you say, Look, you know we're doing we're doing all these outbound campaigns. We're talking to people every week. You know, I'd like to be able to hold this rate for you, as I'm sure you can appreciate. As another business owner, I can't keep prices the same way and plan effectively forever with that in mind. You know what? Like? What is a reasonable time for you guys to decide on something like this? So I can kind of stay ahead of our production calendar. That's one. Way to put it. But if you know, if you're just kind of saying, well, Tuesday's the deadline and or we're gonna give you a discount, if you decide by then, well, why, you know? Why? Why can't I have the discount just because, like, why can't you just give me that price to begin with? You know? So you have to, you have to have good reasons for it.

Robert Plank 5:16 And that makes a lot of sense. And I like that, that one part of it in there where maybe you ask them how long they decide, so they almost set the deadline for themselves,

Dan Englander 5:27 correct, correct.

Robert Plank 5:29 And so just to make sure that that we're all kind of on the same page, Could you walk us through a case study, or of some kind of like, what actually, whatever actually happens here? Because we You mentioned a little bit here that there's some of talking on the phone, there's some of presenting some sort of package to someone, and there's some sort of, you know, some kind of urgency. Maybe we have to be a little more creative on a sales letter. But could you kind of walk us through, like, who you're doing this for, and like, you know, what's their what's their niche, and what kind of offer that you're, you're marketing to people? Yeah,

Dan Englander 6:02 absolutely. So my main niche are our agencies. And typically I skew towards creative. So people doing websites, people doing video work, people doing these project based offerings. So, you know, there's two ways that I help them. One is, is by actually generating the leads with with my team, and doing these, these sort of targeted outbound campaigns. Other times, I'm just helping on the sales end, when the leads are actually coming through, and helping them to kind of develop a consistent sales process, talk thing, talking them through their pipelines, making sure they're kind of doing the right things on the trenches. Or I'm doing both of those sides combined. So, you know, a typical case study, and this is something it would probably be with, with where, with the business that I helped to build, and that's and that's the sort of experience that I'm drawing on to help my clients now. And it ends up being a lot of same story, different day, I think, in a good way, because I think a lot of creative agencies have the same problems. So typically it starts, I think is the most direct way, is through outbound email. I know there's pros and cons to outbound. The pro is that you can get results a lot faster. You can start testing things. You can be talking to people sooner rather than later, and even if you're failing on these sales calls, even if you're saying all the wrong things, you're going to learn a lot faster than if you go for the less scary allure of paid traffic and content and these sort of impersonal strategies that I think a lot of times, people will spend their reels with just to avoid the fear of a sales call. So that's why I'm a big fan of outbound. The downside is, you're knocking on the doors, right? So you don't have the same authority. You don't come in with the same credit as if somebody's knocking on your door. The good news is, is that if you're specialized enough, that's not the end of the world. It's less of a problem that I think people make it out to be. People will say things like, HubSpot, because they sell Inbound Marketing Service software. Will say outbound is dead. It's not at all you can do very well with it. Have huge successes go after, you know, gargantuan fortune, 500 clients. So I mean, the answer your question and kind of gives another case study. Usually starts with that, with crafting a decent outbound template and making sure that you can get targeted in terms of the problem you're solving and the niche that you're going after, and also just goals in mind. So you know you need to get a certain number of leads. You're pretty sure, based on your past wins, that you can close two in 10, or three in 10, or whatever it may be, before you start investing in a campaign like this, whether you're hiring somebody like me or doing it yourself. So from there, you know, once you have this targeting all lined up, there's a lot of ways that you can source the list. And I, you know, one thing that people think they have to do is go out and buy some list, which is the worst waste of money. Usually, those emails are bad. It's not targeted. It's not focused at all. What you should do rather is, you know, you know the size of the company you're going after, you know the titles. You can do a lot of this through scraping or, you know, hiring a VA to do it, because chances are, if you're listening to this podcast, your time is worth much more than that sort of, you know, back breaking work of actually researching the emails yourself. So it's quite outsourceable, and there's a lot of nitty gritty to that, but in a nutshell, that's what you're doing. So you have the list when it comes to writing the actual template. One thing that we that I've discovered through doing this many times, and getting back into what I was talking about earlier, is that the sort of sales email you write, the tone, is going to be completely different than the sort of click funnel marketing emails that a lot of your very talented guests have talked about in the past. So it's not going to be very long. It's going to be of the tone that of somebody maybe you met at a cocktail party, reconnecting with you again a peer or an acquaintance. That's sort of the tone you want to keep. And also, I think a lot of the times when people don't know outbound emails, they'll come in the doors thinking that I have to grovel for somebody's time. I have to say if I can just get five minutes, or I know this is an annoying outbound email, but please give me the benefit of the doubt. And it's just the sort of this, you know, this deferring of authority to somebody. Else. And you know, there's kind of a fine line. You want to respect their time. You want to let them know it's not going to go on forever, not going to drag them into some sales pitch. But at the same time, you're also, you're also, you know, respecting your own time. Enough. So it's more like saying, Here's, you know, I've customized this email to you. I'm reaching out for a good reason. Here's what we do in one or two sentences. Can we chat so I can walk you through the program, and you know how you do that can happen many different ways, and there's always no shortage of outbound techniques, but that's sort of the essence of it. So then, and then from there, yeah? Please, please cut me off, because I could go on forever, yeah.

Robert Plank 10:37 I mean, yeah, this is good stuff. I want to make sure that I'm understanding everything that you're saying here, so am I understanding you correctly in that? So in this technique, you are not like mailing to like a pre built list that you have, and you're not like buying, like an info USA list. You're actually going out and you're you're finding people that you want to do business with, and you're either finding like their contact form or their email address, and just getting this, this list of of prospects, and not dumping them into like a email marketing database, but you're taking your template and you're sending these emails out, one at a time, customized to each person. Is that right?

Dan Englander 11:14 Correct? Yeah, yeah. And that's super important. I think however you do it, you want to build your own list at the end of the day, I think there's no reason to use a product like like a pre built list or something like that, because you just can't trust it. You're just kind of, you know, giving you're just getting what they send you, and it's a huge speculative investment. When you build your own list, then you're still, you're going to learn a lot, even if you don't get any sales. And that's the worst case scenario. Ideally, you should be getting sales. Obviously,

Robert Plank 11:45 okay, so, so you're, you're going out, and so in this, this case study that we're talking about, so, like, who, what, what would you act What will you search for? And what kind of websites are you looking for? And, like, what kind of, what kind of offer are you trying to sell these people.

Dan Englander 12:02 Well, it depends on what client I'm working with. So with, with, you know, with the business that I helped build, we were selling high end animated video services. So it started out us going after tech startups. So a great source for us was CrunchBase. So we could go on CrunchBase and see who got funded, and we knew what titles you're going after. We either going to go after a CMO or CEO. And then from that, you know, we have it pretty well nailed down, you know, we can get a VA to go scrape these lists and create them. And then from there, it's just sort of about extending a, you know, a low commitment offer through email, like, let us talk, so we can give you all the information about what we do and our price, and then, no, just, you're basically not saying you're not using the word CONSULTATION. You're not using the word, you know, product tour. It's a brief call. So that's, that's sort of what it was in a nutshell. Okay,

Robert Plank 12:53 so, so you were, you're helping build this idea, rocket animation studio, and you went on, say, for example, like crunch face and other areas, just to see what sort of companies were up and comers, who just got, who got funding. So you would have a VA, look at, you know, those sort of companies and and get their information. And so you'd send that initial email, and you'd say, you know, you're so, I mean, what exactly is this email like? I know that you said a little bit about how you're trying to schedule a short phone call, but like, what's the pretext for this phone call and stuff like that? Well, I

Dan Englander 13:27 guess my caveat about what to do with outbound is that I think that there are a lot of ways to do it right, and I think that it's easy to get hung up on this or that template where somebody over here is doing this thing right. And the thing you know, you're kind of seeing this, this car from the outside, but you're not really seeing what engines inside of it or seeing why it works. So it can be a little misleading to sort of just, you know, reverse engineer a winning template. I think what's, I think what I've noticed, what I'm more sure about, is what not to do so, and that's not because I'm scared to give up my templates. I put them out of my courses. I tell my clients about them. It's not, it's not an intellectual property thing. It's just, I just want it to work for people. So what I think doesn't work is when you when you go too long, or when the email kind of lives in your world. So it's more about you and these accolades that you've achieved and the success you've gotten, it has to be more based on some sort of falsifiable result that you've gotten for your clients. And you know, with that in mind, it usually entails less adjectives. It usually entails more more verbs. You know, we've done this. We've done that. And in some, some element of customization that is sincere, you know, and as a little secret, there's a way, there's many ways, to completely automate emails and make them what customized and through technology, which is something I can get into, okay?

Robert Plank 14:45 I mean, yeah, let's, let's talk about that. I mean, is that a matter of, just like, having form fields and plugging in, like a, like a mail merge sort of document from a spreadsheet? Or how do you, oh, that's how you do it.

Dan Englander 14:57 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, but it's, it still works. And even if, you know, even if it is automated, it's, it's still works quite well if you're getting targeted enough. And what I use, personally is, I'm a big fan of quick mail that I think that's very simple, very easy to test things and so on. So that's, that's what I'd recommend. Okay, cool.

Robert Plank 15:19 And just to make sure that everyone, like, understands this whole this mail merge thing, so you would be, you would like, write a template, or you plug in one of your templates for this outbound stuff, depending on who you're going after and what sort of business that you're helping to build, and you just have this written email, but with blank spots for, for example, like, I guess, I mean, what kind of things, like, like, their name, their website, what type of company they are, and just kind of plug into the from the spreadsheet, into those emails, or, like, what I mean, what sort of without, I mean, you know, they said that you're fine giving away the template, but that would be kind of boring here. But, like, it just in general, like, what does that template say? Yeah, yeah.

Dan Englander 16:01 And I'm not cagey about that. I just, I just, you know, I've made my own mistakes trying to reverse engineer other people's templates. And it sometimes can be, can be a trap. But in essence, there's, there's different things that I've tried in the past that have worked well, I think the best is when you can sort of interlay timing, if there's some sort of milestone or event like scenario that you can use in the email that works really well. Like, if you know that if somebody's hiring marketing people, that's going to be a good sign they need your high end copywriting services, then that is better than if you just use some other piece of information that's not really just timing specific. So you know, for example, you might, you might look at Indeed, or Angelus jobs or something, and say, hey, it looks like you just hired a fill in the blank Marketing Associate, or whatever it may be. You know that this is something we focus on. We help similar companies with XYZ. Thought it would be good time to reach out based on that, can we chat so I can give you all the details on our program? You know, that's that's the sort of thing that I would lean towards. And whenever there's timing involved, I think that's the best way to customize that first line. And

Robert Plank 17:07 I like that. And just something small like that sort of shows that you're not sending a mass email, that you actually looked at their company somewhat, and that's a little bit customized for them and not and, you know, you might have customized hundreds of emails. But it's not like you're just blasting out and just spamming 1000s of things. You're actually, at least looked at their site a little bit,

Dan Englander 17:28 yeah, yeah, exactly. And you don't, you really don't need to send a massive amounts. That's another mistake I've made. You can test things without that many emails that just, you know, 50 or 100 a day will give you lots of good data, because if you're, if you're doing these sort of campaigns, then you're, you're doing it right? You should be going after a niche. You should be going after a pretty limited audience, so it's not everyone in the world. So, so, yeah, I would say start small. Okay,

Robert Plank 17:55 that makes sense. And so, so you were building, helping to build idea rocket, and you were contacting these companies that had funding, or you look at indeed or angel list and see if they they hired someone new, and then you send out that email saying, you know, we want to help out. Can we do a quick chat? And so then how would you get them on the phone? Would you send them to some sort of a scheduler, or would you figure out a time from the back and forth, or how would you get them from the email to having them on the phone?

Dan Englander 18:27 Yeah, I'd say avoid the scheduler. I think that's another example of sort of, you know, the bend towards automation, the bend towards the marketers thinking not really working as well in sales, if you I used to, and I made this mistake myself. So if you use a Calendly link or a scheduler, it just doesn't look as personal. It's just a little nuance that looks a little bit more robotic and a little bit less less empathetic. So I think it should, it should start with a question, can we chat this week or next so I can give you all the details on the program or something to that effect? That's That's my recommendation. And then from there, you know, if they say yes, then you can feel free to send a link or whatever. But that's the good, the best first step.

Robert Plank 19:08 Okay, so, so get that micro commitment first, get them to to, first of all, agree to it. And so, and did they hear you write that? So after the after, you say, like, can we chat this week or next? If they say yes, then you send the link the direct like the Calendly or the time trade link, or whatever, or do you do you have the VA work that out?

Dan Englander 19:30 Well, you know, I think that it just depends on where you are in the process. But I think there's, there's not really a place for a VA in that particular part of of the campaign. I mean, if somebody's, if you have, if you're selling a product that substantiates a salesperson, it's probably going to be 1000s of dollars at least. You know, if it's less than that, then you should be looking to get marketing automation to handle it. But if it involves a human being, then you, you know you're going to be, it's worth you make. Be sure to lock that you can lock down this appointment. So yeah, I mean, feel free to send a calendar link, or maybe you want to be more specific, and you just want to lock them down at a particular time, whatever, however you want to do it. The idea is your time, it's probably worth you being involved in that part of the process. I mean, the sort of the benefits to automation at that point are, I think, you know, inverse to the gains of you using your your brain. That makes sense, yeah,

Robert Plank 20:27 that makes total sense. And unfair enough there. So you you get so then when the appointment time comes around, you get them on the phone for this five minute phone call. And so more or less, like, what said on that phone call.

Dan Englander 20:42 Yeah. And of course, you know, for agencies, it's going to be different than everyone in your audience who's going to be everyone selling something different. But first of all, I would stray away from the five minute phone call promise, because everyone knows that that's not how it goes. You know, if you're going to get any level of detail about anything a B to B product, you're going to need at least 15 minutes. And usually the 15 minutes becomes 20 or 30. So I think you you don't want to be glib. You want to be upfront about what you're you're you're obligating people to. And the fact of the matter is, if somebody's not willing to talk to you for 15 minutes about a product that's going to cost 1000s of dollars, not much, much more than they're just not worth your time to begin with. So I would start there, and then on that first call, what you're doing is you're you're qualifying them. I mean, you're really making sure that they're worth more calls or a proposal, or whatever you need to do to bring them to to close, which, of course, is going to vary depending on what you're selling and

Robert Plank 21:41 and so it will vary depending on what you're selling. But, I mean, what like, in general, like, what sort of things are you asking them about their business? Or, like, sure, like, what are you telling them? Well,

Dan Englander 21:52 when you're qualifying, you basically want to make sure they hit all the check boxes. And this, you know, those check boxes are enumerated many different ways by many different sales messages or sales training, you know, procedures, but basically, you want to make sure that they have enough pain to do something different than what they're doing right now. You want to make sure that you're speaking to a decision maker, and if you can't, and you're not, maybe you're selling to a large organization, there's going to be different people involved. You want to at least understand how they're going to be making the decision you want to make sure that they have a budget and they can afford you. So that usually means at least giving a rough range or talking about your price on some level, even if it's not exact yet. And you want to make sure they have a time frame to get started. So that kind of, you know, these things aren't exactly mutually exclusive, but they they're all kind of tied together. And if, for you know, if they just say this is something that could happen anytime in the next two years, it's kind of nice, then that's not, doesn't mean they're worthless or that they deserve no follow up, but that's going to be prioritized, definitely to somebody who's like, we're going to make a new website, or we're going to redo our landing pages this quarter, and we're trying to figure out the right person. So you need those things in place. And then once you have those things in place, then you you can bring them to the next step,

Unknown Speaker 23:05 which is what,

Dan Englander 23:08 well, it could vary. I mean, for what most of my clients are selling, it's usually a proposal stage. And that proposal, you know, a lot of people think it has to be kind of customized spec work, or it has to take a lot of your time, and that's not necessarily the case. I think very little of it needs to be customized. But you know, you need to make sure that the person is worth it before you bring them to that stage. And you want to lock down that follow up appointment on the first call, so you're not chasing people around. And if they're averse to that or that's not going to be purposeful to to what you're doing, then that's okay, too. But the idea is that you know you're you're playing your cards right at the table, that you're investing your energy on the right people, so that you're, you're not spinning your wheels on somebody that's just going to ghost on you at the 11th hour, which is, I think, the most common sales problem I come across.

Robert Plank 24:00 And so the way you're laying that out makes a lot of sense in that. I mean, I haven't done too much like outbound calling, and I know that a lot of people listening, maybe they're thinking, like, this is something they should be looking into, but it might seem kind of kind of scary, or like, like this, this big, crazy thing. But I like the way that you're sort of laying this out in that it's like, you're, you're just slowly, like, filtering out more and more people. And some people kind of get, you know, 10 feet up, up, up the way, and then you kind of stop. And some people, you get them, you know, 50 feet up the way, and then you kind of stop. And so I like this, and that first you go out and you you find all these, you know, growing businesses that are in need of whatever kind of service that you're offering. And you go and contact those, and you figure out which ones of those respond, and can hop on this initial phone call, and then on this phone call, even though, like you said, different things are said based on, you know, what you're selling and what the niches and stuff like that, but you make sure that they have enough pain. To try something different. You make sure that the person you're talking to is a decision maker. You make sure they have the budget, and you make sure they have the time frame to get started just by asking these questions. And then if, if all those boxes are checked, if you're going to continue to the next part, then you figure out that that follow up call, and you figure out the proposal. And then that way, you can send them some sort of sort of package based on what you talked about, and then they can either take it or not take it. Is that along the road

Dan Englander 25:26 Exactly? Yeah, exactly. And I think that the biggest sort of secret sauce involved in that is you want to set expectations throughout that whole process. So you know, you're letting them know what they can expect at each stage. And that before you do proposal, before you take that, that speculative risk, you're saying, Look, by the end of this proposal, we're going to go over it in real time. By the end of that, you know, I'd like either a green light or red light so that I can plan ahead. If we get a red light, that's fine. But, you know, I what I can't handle for the sake of planning, is just not knowing if this is going to work or not. So is that okay with you? You know, sort of getting that commitment. Otherwise, what happens is, you don't get a firm answer. You get a, let me pile over it, and I'll get back to you. You never hear from them again. And then it's just, it's just sort of all for nothing. If you get a no, that's great, because then, you know, you can either hear what objections they have and possibly get around them, or at least you you're getting feedback from the market. But what? But what really hurts these agencies, or just, you know, any company doing sales in general, is when you just get silence, and you've already invested lots of resources and selling somebody.

Robert Plank 26:36 And that makes sense. So it seems, it sounds like it's just, it's a matter of getting the right little commitments or asking the right questions, that way you're not wasting their time, and they're not wasting your time.

Dan Englander 26:47 Exactly, yeah, and then, you know, really, just making sure that they know that they can tell, you know, at any given time, that's, that's was really big for me, you know, as a salesperson, that really helped out a lot. And by the way, I don't know how I sound now. I haven't always been very confident about doing sales, and I still get nervous on calls. And before I knew better, I was basically just a glorified order taker. So doing everything wrong, like when the first months, when I started in a position where I had to sell the animated video, I would just get enough information to put together a proposal. I'd send people the proposal that I never hear from them again, and we had to do pretty badly before it was just, you know, the founder and myself, just two of us, and he's like, You should probably you want some sales training or something. I was like, yeah, it's probably a good idea. And then it was just, you know, a long journey. From there, I got to practice on lots of calls, because our marketing was so dialed in that, you know, we were getting lots of leads, and I just slowly, sort of optimized and improved and got it to a good place. So I think that, you know, a lot of people think that I'm scared of sales. I suck at it. I don't want to have to do it, and it shouldn't have to be like that. I think that that it's something you can build confidence about over time, and it's the fastest way to learn what to sell to your market if you're at an early stage, I've just noticed that I've done this myself, that there is a lot of head trash that you'll develop, and that people often sort of do as resistance and avoidance to getting on a sales call. But if you're going to go move a lot faster, if you get on a few clunky sales calls, and you will if you write a million, you know, landing pages and spend 1000s of dollars on ads, on people coming from ads, and so on so. And

Robert Plank 28:28 it sounds like, yeah, and as far as those two cents, it sounds like what you've been talking about with us today. It sounds like, if you have the right like, template or process or whatever, as far as you know, moving those prospects from point A to point B, and you have the like, a lot of those mistakes. It sounds like that's the fastest path towards even getting a handle on this whole outbound calling thing, as opposed to, you know, studying all these, these principles and stuff like that. I mean, that sounds like a really easy way to to talk yourself out of actually doing it. It sounds like what's worked out very well for you is to just make all the mistakes clearly, that way you can get to where you want to go.

Dan Englander 29:07 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, it's sort of like actually being right, or being a little more sure about you're saying what you're saying, as opposed to having the perception that you that you are right. You know. So sales calls will tell you very fast where you stand with with the market, I think a lot faster than any amount of survey funnels. Well, yeah, you have 1000s of people on a list that love you, like Ryan Levesque, yeah, absolutely. I mean, but if you are just starting out, and you have less than 1000 people on your list, try to sell something to them, get on a call, you're going to move a lot faster.

Robert Plank 29:43 And I'd rather be wrong now, sort of where you bring I'd rather be wrong now, and a lot right later than right now, and wrong later, right? Exactly.

Dan Englander 29:53 Yeah, yeah. And one thing that's that's helped me a lot is is understanding that, you know, I had a lot of head trash about the value. You the perceived value of my time, and I do really care about my time. There's a lot of things that I don't want to waste my time doing, and then I'm happy to hire people or not do largely related to like copywriting, web development, things like that. But that's different than denying your time to the people that you can learn from most so I was scared to get on calls with with my with people that, even if they were smaller companies that might not be able to afford me yet or whatever, and I was just like, I don't want them to think that I just talk. I'll just like, give up an hour to them. But the fact of the matter is, if you're, if you're early, that that time you spend with them is very valuable, and it's it is worth the talking to them, and you're the perceived value of your time is not that valuable because it's your time's not that valuable yet. So I think that that can kind of create, it's sort of like you're, you're resistant to talking with people. So you use like, oh my, my perceived value needs to be so high. And then you avoid things. So I think that that's, that's been a big lesson for me, is that, you know, if I can, if I can learn, teach or sell something every day, I'm going to move way faster than if I sort of cut myself off from the world because I'm in the cyber attack or somewhere.

Robert Plank 31:08 Yeah, that's a really good attitude, I think. And so along those lines, can you tell us about what it is that doing right now and tell us about sales schema and all these other cool things you have going on?

Dan Englander 31:17 Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. So right now, I'm basically doing outbound campaigns for agencies and also coaching them through their sales funnels, so sort of helping them close the leads that we're bringing in. So yeah, we skew towards, usually agencies about 2 million in revenues and up, you know, give or take, and then beyond that. You know, I have a course that I'm probably going to relaunch next quarter, I'd say I want to focus a little bit more on the on the coaching and consulting side of things for now. Yeah, and then on my side, I try to put out content pretty often. I do webinars on everything I'm talking about. So kind of lead to close type issues, you know, kind of geared towards agencies.

Robert Plank 31:57 Great. So where can people go to find out about all that cool stuff. Yeah, it

Dan Englander 32:03 says sales schema.com you know, sales and schemas and schematic.com

Robert Plank 32:07 perfect, and that's s, a, L, E, S, S, C, H, E, M, a.com, just so that everyone has that spelled out, sales schema.com so thanks so much, Dan for stopping by the show and telling us about this, this previously scary thing, like outbound calls and talking to strangers and trying to get money from strangers. But I think that, like you said, if everyone wants to scale, if everyone wants to get to the money faster, if they don't have a huge list that they haven't been around for 1020, years, it sounds like this is the perfect solution for everyone to go ahead and do right now. So thanks for coming by the show Dan and teaching us some of this cool stuff.

Unknown Speaker 32:45 Thank you, Robert. I

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