1223: Build Grow Scale: Optimize Your E-Commerce Website and Reverse Engineer the Customer Journey for Higher Conversions with Managing Partner Matthew Stafford

Robert Plank 0:04 Hey, welcome back. We are here on the podcast with Matthew Stafford from build, grow, scale.com and Matthew has been entrepreneurial. He's been successfully building several businesses across all kinds of industries, concrete, brick and mortar, locations, software, and now Matthew has build grow skill, and we're going to be talking today about e commerce optimization, about getting these e commerce brands optimized websites for higher conversions, customer loyalty, leverage to improve customer experience, all these things that sometimes you say, Oh, I haven't thought about that in six or 12 months, or I've heard about it on a service level. But how was it actually practiced? How was it implemented? Well, Matthew is our guy to show us the way, to explain to us what's possible, to encourage and teach us. So Matthew, glad to be speaking with you.

Matthew Stafford 0:56 Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Likewise,

Robert Plank 0:59 I am too. And so I introduced you a little bit, hyped you up and in your own words, like, what did I leave out, or what should we really be focusing on in our session today?

Matthew Stafford 1:10 Yeah, I think my aha moment was I was really good at ads and could drive a lot of traffic, and so I thought that was the secret sauce. And what I realized is traffic's not the problem, it's usually the website. And how I discovered that was I was trying to do, I was trying to figure out why we couldn't make money. And what ended up happening was I was looking at how many people or how many clicks the ads site came to my website, I wasn't looking at how many people actually scrolled through the website and looked at there's a bounce rate, and at the time, it was very high on the site that we were driving traffic to. So like, one in three clicks that they sent was actually looking at the website. And we were thinking we were getting all kinds of people looking at it, and when, in reality, only about 33% were and so all that to say traffic's not the problem. It's actually the website that converts the traffic. Because if you have 100 visitors and you only make two sales, everybody has this mentality, oh, I need to send another 100 visitors instead of, how do I get two more people out of those 98 that came to convert and I'll double my business on the same amount of ad spend. And so that kind of drove me down the rabbit hole of figuring out the data to see what people are doing on the website so we can make more money.

Robert Plank 2:40 I love it. Well, they call that a leaky bucket, right? You say that, well, I need to increase some of these factors to make the math equation work better, right? It's like I've got these two inputs and the output is money. Need to make more money. What do I increase? And then people say, oh, I'll just throw more ads at it. And you're and you're saying, well, if all these people are coming to your site and just not doing what you want them to do. And they're they're leaving, they're not opting in, they're not saying they're not buying then you say, Well, you got problems at home. You need to fix those fundamentals first. And but, like, it's, I don't know about you, but like, sometimes I get kind of, I get kind of mad looking at my own website, or a little like, insecure, right? Look at my site. I'm like, I don't even know what to where to start. I don't even know what to add. So, like, when you say, like, you work with some of these, like, e commerce brands, and you give them this advice, you say, Okay, well, you need to be fixing some of your conversion. Like, what's the starting point? Are you the kind of guy that says, like, like, kind of just act as a new a new visitor, install some analytics. Where do we even begin to solve this problem?

Matthew Stafford 3:46 Yeah, so both of both of those options that you said are true. One you want clean data, because otherwise you're just you're just guessing. And to be honest, you know, we've been doing this every day for the last eight years. And if we're not using data, our tests are literally we probably lose more than half the amount of time. And tests are expensive and take time to run. So you want to use data to run something that's going to actually matter to the business. Otherwise, you're just, essentially, you're just doing busy work. You're not doing something that's going to make a difference. So the data is critical. Two I would tell everybody to start at the checkout and the card, because if you fix those two things, you optimize those two things, you instantly start making more money, which gives you more runway to work on the business. And a lot of times people, they literally look at their homepage and make that perfect and answer all kinds of questions on the homepage, thinking that that's going to make people stay and the truth of the matter is your homepage literally. Really only has two purposes. Did I land on the right thing? What's their unique value proposition? Actually three things in easy navigation. But did I land on the right site? And what's their value proposition? Could really be one and then two, easy navigation to what they're looking for. The home page isn't meant to sell. The longer people are on it, the actually, the less they convert.

Robert Plank 5:23 Well, micro commitments, right? It's like, well, there's someone doesn't just jump right to the order button. The page loads and we're in the right place it you know, do I? Do I like the value proposition? And then now, how can the navigation get me to where I want to go? That's a easy thing to forget about, right? That there's even just, you know, when you when you tie your shoes, when you turn open a door and turn a doorknob, there's all these steps that go into it that we take for granted. And what I like about what you said there about starting with Checkout is there's a quick win, right? You go and fix up a few things in checkout, if you're checking your data, you might say, Hey, I just did those couple of things, spent half an hour on it, and now we're making 10% more money, right, converting 10% better. And then it's like, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Stafford 6:09 I was gonna say, if you don't fix those areas, if I make your homepage work better, and that you get more people to your collection page, and then I work on your collection page and make that better, and get more people to your product page and then make your product page better and get more people to the cart. I've already wasted two months without making you more money because you need more conversions to make more money, so I haven't extended your runway, even though your your site is getting better and better all along, you're not making any more money for it.

Robert Plank 6:41 Yeah, it's, it's not encouraging enough, right? You say, Well, I did all this stuff and it didn't change anything. Why should I keep going? And so you're saying that we need to kind of reverse engineer or go backwards instead, right? If you go forwards, you're like, Well, if I do the landing page first, spent all this work, didn't do anything, but you fixed your your conversion rate. And then I imagine that it might even like, just make, make the the thought process easier, right? Because instead of thinking forward, you're like, Well, okay, they're on the checkout page. Now, how do I how do we just get them there? Okay, well, where would they be clicking from, all right? Now, if I back up now, what do I use to fill out the the landing page. Now, if I back up now, maybe that'll speak to the headline better, like it's like it seems like it's a fresh perspective by going in reverse,

Matthew Stafford 7:28 yeah, and, and in all reality, you're making more money throughout the entire process, because now, when your cart and your checkout are optimized and you optimize your product page, you're making more money. And then when you optimize your collection page, you get more people to the product page which is already optimized, which can make more money. And so it just works to help you hit the business goals that you're looking for.

Robert Plank 7:55 I love it. Well, that's such good advice that even the people are calling on on the phone to say, hey, I want to buy from Matthew because he helped fix up the web page. And so that's, that's great, kind of, on a fundamental level, to tell us, like, Okay, well, these are some, again, it applies, like, any kind of niche, any kind of website, but as far as, like, some specificity here, so it's great and fun to jump into stories, right? Like, you have all these clients, have all these brands that you helped out. And so there's a fun story come to mind, as far as just like, telling us, like, what you do, what's possible, the before and after anything come to mind?

Matthew Stafford 8:29 Yeah. So we were working on a site that had a video, and it was basically a VSL, and in that VSL, it was a certain amount of time, and we asked them, hey, we're gonna put a survey on the end of your site after someone buys from you that says, What was one thing that almost made you not buy? So we asked everybody that made a purchase, what is one thing that almost made you not buy? And all these people basically tell what is they didn't understand what was hard to figure out, or where there was friction points. And so we took all of those and we analyzed them, and one of the main things was the video is too long, and they're like, nope, nope. Can't do it. We've tried certain in the video. We've tried shorter versions. This one converts the most. And a simple question we asked them was, how do you watch your videos? And they're like, What do you mean? I said, Do you watch them on the standard viewing rate, or do you watch it at 1.2 or 1.5 and they're like, oh, yeah, no, I always speed them up. I'm like, Okay, let's give them the option to speed this video up to 1.2 or 1.5 so they still watch all the information. They just get to watch it quicker. And when they did that, it gave them a 10% lift. And so if you think about it, they were doing about $60 million a year. A 10% lift at that point is about a 6 million. Dollar win from asking them what was the one thing that almost made you not buy?

Robert Plank 10:05 I love that problem solving and kind of like your other advice. With the checkout page like this, there's a there's a lot of cool things built into it, right? Like, I remember when I was first new in marketing, and I was like, Have you been around back from the days when, like, you'd set up a Clickbank product and like, they'd have to approve it? Do you remember that, I don't know it was like the dark of like, HTML plays the dark ages, but like, when you, when you, you'd have an account, and if you sold a new product, like, they would have to approve it. And there's all these things you have to do. And one of the thing was, they were like, well, even after they check out, like, do you send them somewhere else? And, I mean, that's, that's such a, like, an internet marketing sin, right? Like, so many times you buy something and like, Oh, check your email or thanks for your purchase. It's like, wait, wait a second. Like, send me to something else. So with, with that said, I love this idea of the survey. Why did, why do you almost not buy? Because, like, whenever people mention surveys, I'm just like, are we asking the survey of the right people? Right? If you ask, like, the non buyers, a tire kickers, it's not, maybe the people, but yes, your buyers, like, that's the people I want to optimize for.

Matthew Stafford 11:09 So I love that. Why they've already invested in you by buying the product. So now, yeah, when you, when you do that, like you are genuinely asking someone who wants to help you, they want to see you win, because they just spent money with you, right? Yeah.

Robert Plank 11:26 And it's like, there's the like, what do they call it the Ben Franklin principle, where, like, if they pay you money, they like you more. You think it would be the opposite, but it's like, hey, they want to kind of help you out. And also, there's like, good problem solving there, right? Because you said, like, the first instinct was, oh, that's a bad answer. Let's ask them something different. We can't change it. But then you're like, Well, hey, like, let's figure out a solution. Maybe, instead of cutting out parts of it, just give those maybe impatient people the option to speed it up. And so that's great. And so as far as you know, there's all kinds of people in the E commerce space at super fast pace with so much going on. Is there anything that really angers you that is maybe done improperly, that you say, like, why do people keep making this mistake? Is there a number one mistake?

Matthew Stafford 12:19 I think probably it doesn't make me angry, it makes me I have empathy for them, but I would say, probably, when people do their own customer service, they end up crowding up the pages with a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't matter. They think like, oh, this customer wrote in and didn't understand this thing. So now I need to go put that on my website. And they do that for the 100 people that it was their very first time ever logging online and trying to buy a sale, and now all their other customers have to go through all this garbage in order to make a decision. What I would say is simplicity. Simple. Simplicity scales, and the chaos of having too much stuff fails and so in all reality, if Homer Simpson doesn't understand it, then they shouldn't be putting it on their website, because when you do customer service, you'll realize how shallow people really are when it comes to actually browsing the website and understanding things.

Robert Plank 13:26 And I'm always reminded when I look at like, Google, YouTube, Amazon, just how simple it is. Like, maybe Amazon's hard to get at first, because they sure pile on a lot of the different like, you know, different products on there, but, but still, it's like, a plain white background. It's not overwhelming. As far as the design and so to help us really understand, do you have a good example of what you were just talking about there? Like, as far as, like, you know, it's tempting to, like, keep piling on all the customer service stuff and make a super long FAQ. Like, is there a story you can tell us about, like, where it was, like, well, customer said this,

Matthew Stafford 14:01 Amazon is a good example of putting too much stuff on there. We've tried to replicate some of the things that they've done to see if it would work better, and it actually doesn't. Amazon is it's copied a lot, and if you're not testing, it's actually wrong, because people go there to buy, they don't go there to browse, like when you log on to Amazon, they have a 85% conversion. Nothing else in the world is even close to that. And so people don't go there to browse. They literally go, oh, I need batteries. And they go there to buy, whoever's batteries. They decide on, it's not a matter. It's a marketplace, it's not really a store, and so it has the best options of all different things. Where your store doesn't have that your store requires someone to go, Okay, I know like and trust is free, and this is who I want to buy from.

Robert Plank 14:54 That's a really good distinction, that if they they go to Amazon, they're like, the. They're going there from a different mindset versus they come to your store, they come to your landing page from Amazon,

Matthew Stafford 15:07 than they will from you. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of mass and garbage from them.

Robert Plank 15:14 Yeah, different first impression. Well, great. And so as far as helping us understand what build grow, scale does like, what's kind of your like, your ideal client? What's the starting point? What's the work that you guys do? Yeah,

Matthew Stafford 15:26 so our ideal client is for our agency side, where we partner with people and help them build, grow and scale their business. Typically, they're doing anywhere from the 100 to $250,000 a month range. And we go in and we supply developers, QA and the data and analytics to go ahead and start optimizing and running tests and scaling, and then the people that don't qualify for that, we do audits and some other things, and have workshops that they can attend that will help them get to the point where they can get to that 100 to $200,000 a month.

Robert Plank 16:02 Very cool, and that's a really good business model to have, right? You say, Well, hey, here's our people. If you're at this level, we'll help you get to the next level. But we're also not pretentious. If you're not quite up to scale yet, then here's the training to get yourself there. So that way we can really put the gasoline on the fire once you have the fire lit big enough. And so sometimes people listen to like a like a list like that, of like criteria, and they say, Well, I'm not sure if my business really like fits. And so do you guys, is there like, certain, like niches or types of businesses that you prefer over others?

Matthew Stafford 16:37 No, actually, because we're not doing it based off of how we feel and what we like. We're doing it based off of data, and data is agnostic, and so the principles that we use literally scale across. It doesn't matter whether you're selling supplements or shirts or books or whatever it's literally. We analyze how people interact with websites, and we make sure that your website is converting at the highest level possible.

Robert Plank 17:06 All right, so there's buildgrow, scale.com, you go there and you have the information that that you know you can read about. There's the done for you, there's the mentorship. And there's even a button that says, Tell us about your situation. I love when the buttons actually like, say what it is, right? That's like, one of those conversion things. Don't just say, submit, say, tell us about your situation that way, even if you're like, Well, I'm not sure like which path I should do. You click that button. Matthew and his team will have that conversation. And you know, because we're just kind of getting to know each other here, Matthew, to get a good idea about you. Is there anything that you feel like sharing about the future? Is there anything that you are excited about as far as what your company has coming soon?

Matthew Stafford 17:53 Yeah, we're working on some AI tools that would literally do the deep dive analysis of the Google Analytics and things, if people have it set up properly on their store, so essentially getting them to the stage where they would be an ideal fit much quicker, and doing that as almost like a free resource or get to know you provide some value. Here's a tool that you can use to analyze, and it will tell you areas that you can improve so that you can get to the point where we could help you on an all time basis.

Robert Plank 18:26 Well, awesome. I love your mindset, just that it seems to be like, like, path based, right, like, well, if, if you don't know what you don't know, use this AI tool and get some training and kind of get things set up the proper way. Get your analytics, get your data, get your numbers, improve your conversion, get a feel for your customers, clean up landing page and then, and then. Now you're in the upper tier. So it's great to to think about from an outsider looking in. And so build grow scale.com. Is that the proper landing page to go to? Yep, yep,

Matthew Stafford 18:59 and then, or they can even reach out to me at Matt at Build growth scale.com, I'd be happy to talk to him.

Robert Plank 19:05 Very cool. And it's easy to forget that there's real people here, right? You dial up a podcast, you go on social media, you read some stuff, and it's like, Well, cool. I got some information. But hey, there's, there's these guys, like Matthew and the people at Build growth scale. And I like how you said at the beginning, you're like, six or eight years or something of like, every single day, improving stuff, looking at conversions. And so if, if your business, if your company, if you're only thinking about this once a week, once a month, that's not good, right? Because this requires, like, some real attention, some real effort to get it where it needs to go. So Matthew and his team are here to help you build, grow, scale.com. And before I let you go, Matthew, it's time for that scary part of the show where I try to stump you, try to put you on the spot, and I ask you about a fun quote or lesson that has served you, that you can pass on to us. So what comes to mind to you as far as a fun quote or lesson?

Matthew Stafford 19:58 Um, I would say. I used to believe that I was a procrastinator, and what I realized was there's no such thing as procrastination. You don't get another day tacked on to the end of your life to make up for the things that you didn't tackle or get done. And so really procrastination, another word for it is forfeiture, and I learned that from a mentor that I've been learning from, and I thought, wow, that is a shock to my system. And it's amazing how as soon as you adopt that belief, you stop putting things off and all those little things that are nagging you, you just do them, and you realize you're a lot more productive and a lot happier around it.

Robert Plank 20:43 Very nice. Time is finite. Time is now. You don't get that eighth day of the week. And the procrastination label, I think it makes things too easy, right? Procrastination, it's too comfortable to say, I'm a procrastinator. I'm just like everyone else, and you're saying, well, you're you're giving up your future. You're forfeiting all this success that you deserve and that you can work for and that you can earn. So figure it out, find the time, delegate, build your team, prioritize, focus, do all these things that you know you can and should do. And if you're stuck, maybe it's because you're trapped in your own thinking, maybe you're going it alone. And so you need a better team. You need some better allies and friends and mentors to help you to get to that next level. And the very first step to doing that is one of two choices. If you're an email person, matt@buildgrowscale.com Do you just want to go to the website? That's B, U, I, L, D, G, R, O, W, S, C, A, L, E.com, build, grow, scale.com. Go there. You'll be impressed by the design, look and feel, the simplicity, the information. You'll be glad you went there. And thank you very much. Mr. Matthews Stafford from buildgrow, scale.com for encouraging us, giving us some really cool, helpful ideas. I really appreciate you.

Matthew Stafford 21:55 Thank you very much. It's fun having the conversation.

Robert Plank 22:01 Thank you for tuning in to the marketer of the day podcast. Marketer of the day is managed by dfy podcast. Claim your 12 podcast boosters at dfy podcast.com/free. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai