1253: P3 Selling: The Real Science Behind Closing B2B High-Ticket Sales with Principal Consultant Greg Nutter

Robert Plank 0:04 Hey, we're back on the podcast with Mr. Greg Nutter who is a management consultant, and he helps business owners and senior sales executives solve revenue growth problems through direct, indirect or multi channel sales models. He's also the author of the Amazon best selling book, p3 selling the essentials of B to B sales success. So we're going to find out today about these sales methodologies, how we can give marketers who are looking to improve their ability to support sales some guidance on doing that, and some trends on the world of B to B selling. So here he comes. Mr. Greg. Nutter, hey, Mr. Greg. We pumped everyone up. How are you?

Greg Nutter 0:50 I'm doing great. Thanks, Robert. Great to be here.

Robert Plank 0:54 Great to have you. And you know I will remember you forever, because we've been talking on LinkedIn for about three years, and you're one of the first people I kind of contacted from, like, sort of a sales sequence, trying to find authors who need audio books. And then since coming across you, I've made a couple of 100 audiobook sales. And recently I circled back and you were like, Hey, I went with someone else with an audiobook. You should have been more persistent. You should have followed up more so I now I'm like, okay, so until I get a no, I need to, like, follow up, and because we're all busy, but that aside, kind of the context of how we know each other, what are you all about? What makes you stand out?

Greg Nutter 1:32 Yeah, just to finish off on your comment, is that, you know, things change. People evolve. Their needs evolve. And it's that regular, touch it in, and sometimes you catch somebody, yeah, now I have a problem. So a little bit about me. I'm a little unique in a couple of ways. One is, I'm a I'm a career seller, selling technologies for 30 years or so or more, I've been a sales rep, sales manager, vice president of sales, worked for large companies and small companies, and also spent a lot of time in channel partner management, managing resellers, distributors, etc. More than just having done the job, I've also been a sales trainer and developed training content for people on how to do a better job selling. So that's helped me see what works and what doesn't work. And then lastly, I've been a sales performance consultant. So that's working with big companies, you know, SAP, Hewlett, Packard, Microsoft, NCR. Kind of projects are Michelin, tire and carrier, you know, air conditioning, etc. And so I've got to see a lot of what companies do, what they do, well, what they don't do, well, particularly when it comes to scaling sales capabilities,

Robert Plank 2:55 wonderful. And so I'm always curious about having a sales guy on the podcast, because everyone has their own unique flavor. People have different things to say, like, your B to B guy it sounds like, and there's a lot of the these large transactions. I can't even imagine what like a sale the carrier would be like. And so you always hear all these things of like, you know, do enough of the numbers, right? Do enough output and and get rapport and follow up and talk to the decision maker and ask about their needs. But what's your take on sales? Like, when there's some kind of sales train team to be trained, where do you see the dysfunction, or where do they come to you for help?

Greg Nutter 3:36 Well, there's some misconceptions around what is, what is selling right? And a lot of it comes from the selling we see in our normal day to day life. Is consumer selling, right? I'm trying to sell you a stereo, a car, whatever, and that process is very different than selling to companies, business to consumer. Selling is talking a lot about your product, why it's great. We've got a sale this month. Can I? Can I? Can I put some fries with that? Right? The old upsell, cross sell, but B to B selling is very different. B to B selling plays out over a long period of time with a lot of different people, a lot of different steps. People have a lot of different ideas and perspectives of what the right solution needs to look like. And so when we apply B to C selling, which is kind of like like you described there, let's just make more calls. Be a nice guy, take him for lunch once in a while, right? And you'll get the deal that works in B to C. Selling doesn't work very well in B to B, so the key element is having a process, a roadmap of where are we in this selling process or buying process, and. Then, based on that, what should I be doing? And it's not always taking someone to lunch, telling them about my product, tell them about the sale that's coming up, right? Those things actually don't always work in your favor. So it's understanding the success factors more clearly that are different in a B to B selling environment.

Robert Plank 5:20 That's logical. That makes sense. So it's like the map is different from B to C versus B to B. And you say, Well, you know, where, where is this person along and based on where they are on the map, what should I do? And, like, what might that look like like is that, is that? Like, you know, I'm, I'm five months in, it's phone call number 12. Like, what does it look like, as far as, like, where this contact is and what action I should take.

Greg Nutter 5:47 You raised a great question. A lot of companies have standardized selling processes, right? You pick up the phone, you call somebody, you ask them if they have any needs. They say, Tell me more. And then you do discovery call, you find a little bit about them, then maybe you do a little bit qualification, is this the right person? Do they have money? So you go through the sales process, then you know, you quote, or maybe you do a demonstration, or you give them a sample, then you come up with a proposal, and you ask for the deal. The problem with that is that's a selling process, and the key to success is not following the selling process. It's selling the buying following the buying process. Companies and individuals make, you know, big buying decisions, investments in the same way they go through four key stages. They start with asking the question, Do I have a problem? Is it worth fixing? How big is it? What would it cost me if I don't fix it? And until they go through that and get their head around that, they don't start anything else. Once they do say, You know what, I should look at them fixing this. Then they start looking at options. They look at what information is out there, what have other people done, what ballpark might this cost us to do? And then they go through an evaluation process. So they take the information, they start sifting through and figuring out the best next steps, and then they come down to a decision. So what you do as a seller is entirely dependent on where the company and that person is in their buying decision. So if they are at the first stage and they haven't even figured out if this problem is big enough worth solving, the worst thing you could do is send them a proposal, right? And I have a lot of sales managers say, oh, you know, our people aren't that stupid. Well, I've seen it quite a bit. It's like, well, let's just send them a proposal. Okay, we'll send them. Let's do a demo. Let's right, do something when really they need to be going back and influencing people on the merits of moving to the next stage, which is information, gathering information.

Robert Plank 8:10 I like that, and I know, like you and me, we're kind of, we're dancing around different examples, right? And it's easier to kind of flip around B to B and B to C, because using different examples. But when you mentioned that, like, two things came to mind. One is a bunch of years ago, like, 15 years ago, I went into, I think was like a Sleep Number mattress store, and the sales people were, like, all dressed in pajamas, and I was just looking around. They're like, $3,000 beds. And I was just, like, looking around. And then, and the guy was kind of, you know, being a salesperson. And I was like, I was, I was trying to, kind of like, poke and prod and kind of kind of dabble and like, like, ask different questions. And he was a little firm with me. He's like, I have to do this in this order. And then I sort of cracked the door and let him in, and he brought me through this whole process, and like, laying on the bed and trying out the pillows, and I ended up buying a $3,000 bed, not even realizing what the heck happened. Because, like, he, he didn't let me take over control of the process. And he kind of, kind of slowly, like incremented me through all these different kind of steps. And after a while, I was like, Man, he's, he's done all this, like, it's, it's rude to stop him now and then that comes to mind. And then, like, your your logic here reminds me of, like, the they say there's the five stages of awareness, right? There's like, I don't even know I have a problem. Then I'm solution aware, that I'm product or product unaware, and product aware, and all these kind of steps. And I find that very helpful as far as making the content and making the marketing and doing the follow ups, because I'm like, Okay, I'm just warming the person up. I'm just getting them to the next stage. And it makes a lot of sense, how, if we kind of try to jump to the end in a lot of different contexts, that we might lose them because they're just, they're not even there yet. But versus if we said, hey, here's, I just want to get you to, like, the next thing, of like, knowing you have a problem. Looking at the possible solutions, uh, knowing, like, what that could be. And so how do how do we approach that without being too much of a nice guy, because there's that other fear of like, well, if I don't even ask for the sale or ask for the sale too late, you can drive yourself crazy saying like, well, now I'm not being pushy enough. So what do you have to say about that?

Greg Nutter 10:23 Yeah, I think a couple things. First off, I think you raise a great point that the customer customer is not always right. That you know, a lot of customers are buying products and services for the first time, and it's kind of arrogant of them to think I know how to make this decision, right, which is what a lot of purchasing you know, organizations do, we know how to make this decision. But I think if you're a good seller, particularly in a B to B environment, or even the B to C that you talked about, is that you need to be the expert on the buying process. So if somebody gives you some pushback, like you gave to the guy at a mattress store, you'd say, Hey, Robert, I understand your concerns, and we've had a lot of people who've raised that concern, but let me tell you, if we follow this process, you're going to end up with the best solution. You're going to end up with the best thing. So you give somebody tell them why you're doing it and what's in it for them. And most times, people say, Okay, let's follow that for a little while. You know, I often get asked what's the best role for a seller to play? You know, in front of the to the prospect. And a lot of people say, Well, I'm the relationship manager. I'm the guy there between our company. I'm there to, you know, find out their needs and to position our stuff in front of them. Other people say, No, I'm the product expert. I'm the guy who who knows our product the best and can tell them how to apply it. And I say no, those are all secondary. The primary role of a top notch B to B seller is to be an expert on the buying process. Exactly what you described in your experience at the story is that here's the kind of problems we solve, here's the impact, here's generally what it costs companies if they don't solve them. You agree you need to solve it. Okay, the next stage. This is the kind of information that a lot of people need in order to feel comfortable moving forward. You suggest this, this, this, this, then, here's a way. Here's a decision criteria, some that people often use. So you suggest along the way how to make a good buying decision. And that's, to me, the most powerful role you can play as a B to B seller.

Robert Plank 12:56 That is a cool way of looking at it, like when you're saying that the visual that comes to mind is, like, when you look at the inside of a lock and all these, like, cylinders or tumblers or whatever, like, they have to all be in position in order for the the lock to turn. And so when we're trying to just ask for that sale, and we don't have all of these, like, you know, key pieces in in place beforehand, like, of course, it doesn't work. And, and it's, um, I don't know, like, when, like, I said, I met you on LinkedIn. And the last few years, I've kind of had a lot of fun just getting the the sales muscle figured out. And even with, like, my wife, she goes after audio people as well. And we kind of, we sort of see the same patterns. And so it's, it's kind of, it's a fun game to be played. It changes from a source of social anxiety into it's almost like a like dancing or dating or flirting. It's like you kind of play a back and forth with a person and and then there's and sometimes there's something like, where I get kind of strung along by that prospect, right? They say, Oh well, I buy if only this, only this. And I feel like that's more of they're trying to, like, rip me away from that process, and I end up saying something like, well, if this objection was handled, would you buy? And so, and I found that to be helpful, because sometimes it gets them to kind of show their true colors, right? We've gone through all this process, and it's like, okay, like, and I used to make the mistake of just giving that thing to them and then say, and then say, and then they say, oh, but can I get thing number two? Can I get thing number three? And instead I'm just, like, doing that extra little nuance of like, okay, is that it, if I give this to you, will it be a yes or a no? And so along those lines, do you see, like, a key mistake or a key like, tweak that we could be making to our sales process, just so that way it's more like thought through in some of these ways you describe

Greg Nutter 14:47 some of the things you talked about. There are negotiations. You know, a lot of that happens near the end. Use a great word I liked earlier, called Dancing. In fact, I use that in my book. But. And and I say, you know, dancing requires two people, and you always need to be looking to see if you're dancing by yourself, right? And the litmus test is, is the other person doing something tangible to move the deal forward? Now, you know what the buying process should look like, you know, are they engaging other people? Are they giving you the information you need? Are they helping to develop criteria, right, depending where they are. So if they're not doing those things over a certain amount of time, when I describe how to, you know, calculate that time, then you need to come to. The reality is that you're dancing with yourself, and you could spend your time better elsewhere, right? So hey, I love to work with you, Robert, you're great guy, but I don't feel that you're really at the right position for us to enter into this discussion. Now, if you are in a negotiations and someone is real, then you could pose another question, like, hey, let's, let's get all the things that you need right now to finalize this decision. So that happens in the the final stage, the fourth stage of a buying decision, called the purchase decision stage. So what are all the things? And you actually build a bit of a project plan, you'll sit down and say, Okay, what are all the things our company needs to do? What are all the things your company needs to do? Let's make a list of them. How long are they going to take? Who needs to do that? And then we manage it like a project manager. Okay, when do you think you'll get those things done? When do you think you'll give me all the pieces that you need, right? And if somebody really has a problem that you've identified, it's really key that they solve it, then they'll work with you to build, build and execute that project plans. That's a key thing that you build in the final stages of a buying decisions.

Robert Plank 17:00 Well, the project plansounds great, because I know, like, early on, I made the mistake of information dumping, of saying, like, oh, we could do this. We could do this, and just end up overwhelming the person and then and at the same time, like giving too much away and making them feel like they could do do the thing themselves, instead of me doing it. But then the end result being no one ends up doing it, and it just creates a mess. So I like your dancing with yourself, and instead work with them and create a plan, and it almost feels like it's like they need to also step up, right? And they need to deliver for you, and you're kind of more working together. It's more like teamwork. And so in the spirit of us getting a little bit of education and getting motivated to check out your excellent book, which is p3 selling, my understanding is that the three P's are problem people and processes. But you tell me what is p3 selling all about, and how does it stand out from all the millions of other sales trainings out there?

Greg Nutter 18:03 Well, a couple things. So if you ask yourself, what is selling, particularly B to B selling, it's not the outcome, which is, hey, I want people to buy my stuff, right? It's what do you do? And there's three key behaviors. One is understanding understanding situation and perspectives of your prospect. Second one is influencing them. On those perspectives, influencing them. Hey, this really is a big problem. Hey, you really should have somebody else manage this. Hey, you really need to have somebody with, you know, reference, five references in your industry, right? And then finally, it's messaging. It's so understanding, influencing where you can and then messaging back based on what they've said they need. So if you ask the question, is, okay, where do I focus those three behaviors, understanding, influencing messaging, there are three key areas. One is around problems or opportunities. So what problems do they have, which are important, which are urgent, and how would you quantify them? Put $1 figure on that. The secondary is around people. What kind of people are impacted by those problems or benefit if you solve those those opportunities, who has the greatest influence in a buying decision, right? And what are their perceptions of solving it? And the last area is around buying process, process, but we made a distinction earlier, is we focus on the buying decision process, not a selling process. So where are they? Where's the client, and you're going to find you're going to have individuals that'll be at different stages, maybe one person, if it's a big company, who's ready to sign, and you'll have somebody else that said, no, no, no, no, let's talk to marketing first. Robert, you know they need to weigh in, right? So they're in different places. So you need to know where the company and individuals. Are. And based on that, how are you positioned? And lastly, what should you be doing? What are the best actions? As I said before, when somebody hasn't decided on a make, to buy, doing, giving them a proposal is the worst thing you could do if they're all ready to put pen to paper and you say, oh, you know what? We've got a neat new upgrade coming out next. And I was a new product, a new feature, right? You go, oh, maybe I better wait till I hear that. So you do things in alignment with the buying process. And those are the three theme. You focus on problems people have the problems and the buying decision process,

Robert Plank 20:41 and it seems like the end result is that there's more empathy, right? That instead of you just, like, kind of trying to force this cookie cutter process, you're just like, hey, well, where are they at? And I don't know B to B sales that well, but from like, having podcast guests like you, it sounds like a lot of fun, as far as, like the strategy, right? And like, working on on something for many months, and kind of, like working on different parts of the organization and the key decision makers and saying, like, well, I need to, like, you know, send this, this letter at this point and move them along. Like, it seems like a big problem to solve, but a high reward if we can get, get that, high ticket sale, even though I know you're saying a lot of like, oh, it's not all about the sale, but it is cool to get some right, to meet some objections, get some goals. And so in these last few minutes here, I want to make sure that we work a story in because podcasting is fun to talk about stories, especially where, like, if you either you or a client was really having trouble, and you like, put a create a spin on things, and ended up with a successful resolution. So what comes to mind for you, as far as some fun kind of in the trenches, sales stories,

Greg Nutter 21:55 there are a lot. I'll give you one that is gonna sound a little manipulative, but it's, it's like knowing what you're what the customer wants, before you tell them what you think they want. Long, long time ago, I went in to see a selling to a large technology company, and I went with my boss, and they were having some problems, and we said, Okay, we're gonna give him a really good deal. We're gonna really cut the price. They're gonna love this. We're gonna give them all this free stuff. So we go in there, and we're talking to him, and he, you know, he said, you know, you know, we like to move this sale forward. And we open our binder, we're about to tell him what we what we put together. And he stands up. He says, wait. He goes to the whiteboard. He goes, so this is what you've cost me. This is the problems I've had. Any right to numbers is this is what I'm prepared to pay my boss and I our jaws dropped. It was like about twice of what we were going to offer. Quickly, get into the binder and put it away and stuff. All right, that's a tough bargain. I think we can do it. I don't want to sound like a sneaky salesperson there. It could have been anything else, but he had in his mind a perspective of what would work for him. And our mistake is we didn't ask that, you know, kind of like, you know, we just guessed. And when you guess, you can either, you know, come in with a really low value that we would have made no money on, or you you know, could lose a deal. So I think it's really important to kind of understand the perspectives before you message, you know, what do they want? What are their perspectives around the problem? What are their perspectives on the people that need to be involved with, the perspectives on the buying decision process? And then you message back and and if they've got something that's like, really bad, you know, like, wow, we, we don't buy from companies that don't accept our contract, and you know your boss isn't going to accept that, then you need to know that up front. And that's when you go into influencing right, where you need to influence them to see that that isn't in their best interest, and we have a methodical process that describes how you do that.

Robert Plank 24:29 Ooh, okay, so understanding influencing and messaging and if right out of the gate, if what they want makes sense, then why fight it? Or if something needs to be changed, then work on that. And it seems like there's, I think there's, there's a key life lesson in this that listening and understanding is really important. I know, I don't know about you, Greg, but I know, when I was a kid, I always, I always thought I was right, and I thought that if I crew someone else wrong, they would be impressed. With me, and it's like the opposite is true, right? If, if you repeat something back to someone that they value, they say, oh, this person is smart and and there's definitely value in and listening and understanding and being willing to be wrong and just kind of tuning into what someone else wants. Instead of you saying, Well, you don't know what you're talking about, I'll just be so arrogant, and I'll tell you what how it should be. And there's definitely like, you won't make a lot of friends in this life if you do that. And so it's, it's interesting and fun to think about the all this negotiating stuff and that, the people skills and just kind of massaging a situation into getting this outcome that we want, and if we try to go on our own, then we'll be stuck in this really limited thinking. And so we need some of these perspectives, such as what you're sharing here today, especially by checking out your excellent book, which is called p3 selling, the essentials of B to B sales success. So can you tell us why we should run, not walk to go and claim the book, p3 selling.

Greg Nutter 26:06 If you look at sales training, you know, the books that are in sales training, what's been out there? You know, a lot of them are old. People are still quoting Zig Ziglar and Brian Tracy, Zig Ziglar book came out in what 1974 Brian Tracy, 1988 even you know strategic selling, which everybody talks about me to be as. 1985 these things are 30 to 50 years old. You and I. Well, maybe I wasn't born or you more back then fairly old, old things, right? And so there has been some updates to selling. So Peter fee, selling is simple. I understand there's no embedded jargon. My post, I had a Post this week that Robert you timed, you know, where somebody who had bought the book just recently said highly recommended. So it's based on research on how people make buying decisions, not here's how you should sell. It's here how people make buying and here's how you align to it. It's comprehensive. It has self strategies, tactics and processes and some tools. And finally, it's a methodology that sales managers can use to coach and manage their teams, right? So it's all encompassing package that people can use to really up their game in in selling.

Robert Plank 27:37 Very nice. So it's it's perfect for that person that's frustrated with the outdated 70s and 80s sales training, which is a great start, but what? Hey, things have changed, right? If you've been to a retail store recently, right? People don't, don't buy there. They do the showrooming. They just, they see what there is, and then use their phone. There's a lot of like, following up and, you know, ads following you around. So like, a lot of things about the world have changed in the past 50 years, for sure, and it seems like there's a lot of like people wanting to be, perhaps, more educated and having more choices. And there's just, there's so much in the way that things are done now. And I like what you said there of how p3 selling even applies to someone if they want to train their sales team to do a better job. And so as far as taking next steps with you, Mr. Greg Nutter is p3 selling the only thing to check out. Or are there some other resources someone should go to

Greg Nutter 28:32 if you check out p3 selling, you can find it on almost any online bookstore, Amazon. It's available in e book. You can get it on iTunes. There's an audible or Apple play version of it, so if you like listening to books in the car, it's available in any format. If you go to p3 selling comm and register, you'll get a link so you can download all the tools and templates that we talked about in the book all free, and I won't, I won't bug you with emails every other day to get you to buy something else. So it's comprehensive. The last thing is that some companies like a hands on approach. So we run a workshop, a two day workshop, where we come in and train people on how to apply the concepts in their world. And there's a post I did, I think a week or two ago on LinkedIn where you know the owner of a company sent a note back and said, you know my since you came in and showed our team how to, you know, the follow, the p3 selling processes. Our business is double, he said, and he has no doubt that it's related to the training we did. So lastly, go on Amazon and look at the reviews. As you know, Robert, getting a review is hard, but there's a. Over 100 reviews of people who've read the book, verified purchasers, who will tell you what they think. So don't listen to to me. Go check it out. And if you're looking to do something, if what you're doing isn't getting what you want, then there's an option for some ideas on how to change it.

Robert Plank 30:21 It's time for a different perspective to use your word if what you're currently doing isn't working. And so those are some great resources you mentioned. That's on LinkedIn search Greg Nutter, if you find the one in San Diego, you're at the right place where he makes those excellent posts. And then we said p3 selling.com is where we can claim the get to those that website, and there's all sorts of different podcast appearances, and you can find out about that two day workshop, and then we said, on Amazon and audible and iTunes, etc. P3 selling the essentials of B to B sales success. Now this is a book where you can navigate today's complex B to B environment with confidence. As you win more deals, receive more referrals, make more money and advance your way up the corporate ladder. We want all those things. Right? You never hear anyone saying, oh, I want one out of four. No, you want all of those things. And it doesn't make any sense to do it the hard way. Get get the training that you need to figure out what you're doing wrong, I have to, I do that all the time, like, Oh my gosh. The thing, this thing, Greg pointed out, I can't believe I was doing that. Now, you know not to do it. So p3 selling on Amazon and wherever books are sold. And before I let you go, Mr. Greg, it's time for the scary part of the show where I try to put you on the spot, stump you, and I ask for a fun quote or lesson that has served you in life or in business that you can pass on to us. So what comes to mind for you, as far as a fun quote or lesson?

Greg Nutter 31:49 Can I use two? Go for it double do. All right, the first one really echoes a lot of what we've been talking about today. Robert and to my book, and I use it all the time. And the quote is, I don't know where I got it, but I say it all the time is, I don't know what I'm selling until I know what you're buying. People buy different things. They buy everything from, I want to go home early to, this is too much hassle. Do I want to get promoted? And once you understand what they want to buy, then you take your product and you present it in such a fashion that it meets those needs. People don't companies don't buy products, they don't buy services. They buy solutions to problems or way to capture opportunities. So until you know what those are, you don't know what you're selling. The last one to sum up, our last little conversation is from the late great Joan Rivers. And Joan said, I wish you could tell you it gets better, but it doesn't get better. You get better. So I'll leave that with you as maybe some guidance and selling and some guidance on how maybe you take your sales career forward.

Robert Plank 33:09 That's two pieces of very wise advice. And as we're digesting that, pondering it, thinking it over, go to p3 selling.com. Check out p3 selling, the essentials of B to B. Sales success. Mr. Greg Nutter, it's been a blast and a pleasure speaking with you.

Greg Nutter 33:25 Thanks, Robert. I really appreciate it.

Robert Plank 33:30 Do y podcast.com, forward slash free. Go there right now to see what you could be missing in your podcast. Maybe you aren't active enough on social media? Are you writing and broadcasting an email for every episode of your podcast? Do you follow up with your podcast guests? Do you do things to make your podcast interview and content creation easier? Go to dfy podcast.com/free, to claim your gift right now.