1390: The FORWARD Method: Neuroscience Secrets of Successful Leaders with Neuroscience and Leadership Expert Dr. Elizabeth Moran

Robert Plank 0:00 She is turning neuroscience into a leadership superpower. Dr Elizabeth Moran created the forward method, which is a six step brain based system helping leaders move through tough change with clarity and confidence. And she is the best selling author of the book forward. And she is here with me. I'm Robert Plank. It's the marketer of the day podcast. Our website is dfy podcast.com we handle the tech so you can focus on transformation. And the transformation that we're looking at today is this neurological transformation to the people side of change, but being this high performer who maybe was slipping but gets more tapped into empathy and helps others and is actually a leader who makes a difference and lives the best lifestyle possible. So Dr, Elizabeth Moran, glad to be speaking to you. Glad to have you here.

Elizabeth Moran 0:55 Thank you. Robert, lovely to see you.

Robert Plank 0:57 Lovelyto see you too. And so what did we leave out there? What are you all about? What's your focus and passion?

Elizabeth Moran 1:03 So I think bottom line, well, first of all, human development and helping people live more joyful lives is probably the overarching, I'd say, headline for what I do. One of the ways I like to talk about that is through neuroscience. And when I understood some of these concepts that was completely life changing for me, especially the concept called negativity bias, where our brains give at least three times more psychological weight to the negative stories, experiences, or what could be in our lives. And once I realized, I was like, Wait a second, I'm being set up. So I really understood the antidote to that and how important it is. And I think especially now, so many people are getting mired in anxiety and fear, and they look at some of their reactions as sort of reality. It's not reality, it's habit. And I think the more I can help people understand that, the more they can kind of take back control from their ego that's always in fight or flight,

Robert Plank 2:09 yes, and that just sounds like a recipe for misery, right? So we want to change those habits. We want to take the control back and to say, Okay, well, there's there's negativity, and my brain wants to see that as news and see that that as more important, and if there's anything good happening in my life, well that doesn't really help me, doesn't give me the information I need. So I'll set that aside. But maybe we need to reconfigure and reframe some things. And so how do we do that? What's a good starting point as far as just making this change happen, changing our mindset?

Elizabeth Moran 2:39 Well, I think first of all, just knowing that your brain is setting you up and that's hard wired, this is an instinct that we have, and ultimately right. The instinct was to keep us safe. However, most people are living their lives in constant fight or flight, even if it sounds rational when you're talking about what could go wrong. Certainly it could. But what happens there is you are then become focused on that, and people confuse the habit, because it comes a well worn neural pathway to always go down the negative you can even, I don't know if you've experienced in this life, you know you start to feel this pull and just going down the negative path seems to be the right path. And so really it's knowing that you do this is number one. And then two, taking some time to scan for the good is really the antidote there, which, for a lot of people, is going to feel weird, because emotionally, you still may feel uncomfortable or still be afraid. You have to position and think about what could go right. So in this sense, you're having a thought or a possibility and your feelings have to catch up. That's one of the reasons that people don't do it, is because it doesn't feel aligned, and they feel like they're not being authentic. But once you realize, no, no, your brain is always going to do this, you're the one who's gotta sort of say, let's say an observing self and create a different pathway. The more you do that, the more peace you create. That egoic negative voice is literally robbing you of your peace. It's just an idea. Usually those things aren't happening. The only time you need your ego front and center is when you are in those situations where your life is in danger. I don't want to negotiate. I want to either fight or run, and that's it. I say that's one thing that was really important. The other neuroscience concept that I learned very powerfully is called uncertainty, really so I was working in a jail with inmates, and there was one person who was in the class who most of the class, he was always quiet and downtrodden. I never asked people what they did, because I never wanted to be biased. But one day towards the end of the six week class, I noticed he was all upbeat, and I knew he was awaiting sentencing, but that's all I knew. And so I came in, and he came up to me, and he's like, Elizabeth, guess what? And I'm like. What he's like, I got 30 years, and literally, I'm like, What is my face doing right now? Because I was horrified. But that was very powerful, that 30 years was better than the uncertainty of not knowing. And so once we understand this again, negativity, bias, uncertainty to the ego equals death. It's a very short hop in the egos logic, but most of the time, we're not in those situations, so we're trying to literally override an instinct. So it does take time and effort to do that, but again, awareness of when you're doing it, pulling back and then trying to scan for the good and focusing on that are the ways through

Robert Plank 5:41 very helpful already, a handful of a house at this point, right? Just this idea that, well, we're overriding our instinct and that the feelings have to catch up and that we can scan for the good. And this is just so helpful, because there is that feeling that, okay, well, maybe someday I'll be aligned, right? Maybe someday I'll just be happy automatically, by default, and I'll just wait until that happens. And sometimes people throw out the unhelpful advice, right? They say, well, make a gratitude list. I'm like, a list. Like, sometimes it's hard to even like, find one thing, but it's like, okay, well, you scan it for the good and you tell yourself that this is just something you'll have to do from now on, and maybe you'll get the muscle stronger, but you can't, you can't just tell yourself, Oh, I'll tire myself out just being so positive. But there's the worry that, okay, well, if we're like, a leader, business owner, entrepreneur, whatever, if I'm so dang happy, go lucky. Won't I just be some kind of dope who, like, doesn't see the danger, and who makes bad decisions because I'm so positive.

Elizabeth Moran 6:43 I love that you said that that is, that's it. That's the ego. That's because, literally, the research they've done, the most common emotion at work. What do you think? What do you think is the one that's taken most seriously?

Robert Plank 6:58 I don't know, anger, fear,

Elizabeth Moran 7:00 yes, yes and yes. And the most basically, the one that's least taken seriously is happiness or joy, right? People have we have this idea that in order to do work, we have to be very serious, and the person who's joyful is not serious. They must not be working. These are old tapes that have been ingrained within us. Neuroscience is what's turning that on their head. For as an example, they were the Mayo Clinic did some research in an ER trying to reduce levels of burnout in ER doctors and nurses. What they found is that those folks who were able to reduce burnout increased doing activities of what we call strength, so activities that energized you, things you enjoyed. But that's neuroscience, fear. When we're in fear, it is a short term motivator. It is and a lot of people think that most people walk around with a baseline of anxiety, and they feel that that's normal, that's what it is to live. It's not and that, over time, especially with cortisol, keep getting shot out, actually hurts your immune system. And so because none of us have been trained this way, we are literally not only untraining the instinct, but to your point, we have to say, Wait, who said, who said the more negative view or the more like furious or angry like, who said that that was work? And once you start to question some of these belief systems, you realize, wait a second, it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't serve me, particularly the time when so many entrepreneurs and so many business leaders are bombarded by changes around them or changes they need to make. This is really important when you're trying to get your employees to behave differently, to change fear is not going to be helpful, and certainly not sustainable. And so what I've tried to do is help people understand one Why are your people reacting the way they do? Ie resisting a change when you're trying to make one. And if you understand that, you don't have to waste your time being frustrated by somebody else's resistance, you can just view them as, oh, they have healthy, healthy, working brains. So for instance, what if I view resistance, not as a problem, but resistance is simply that concerns that haven't been addressed yet. That's a mini brain hack that shifts you into curiosity, and then you simply ask, Hey, what do you see that could go wrong with this change? What's concerning you gather data, because there may be a nugget there that's helpful for you. You're engaging them. Maybe you spent 10 minutes, and now you're much more likely to get that person on board. The other thing is, sometimes people just need time. You know, if when? When do you think, Robert, from your experience, when is change a good idea?

Robert Plank 9:55 When is it a good idea? I'm, I'm not sure. I mean, I think you. When you when it's not last minute, when it's not an emergency,

Elizabeth Moran 10:05 yeah. I mean, that's always best, right? There's usually some some impetus. I had a mentor asked me that one time, and he said, Elizabeth, change is a good idea when it's your idea, and even when it's our idea, it can be hard. So you imagine most of us don't like things being changed on us, and usually the leaders, business leaders or owners, by the time they announce the change to their people, they they've already decided to make the change. They've had time, they've looked at different options. They have control. So you're not saying, Oh, if my employees don't like it, I'm not going to make the change, you're simply saying that you've already decided they're hearing about it for the first time. And whenever you make a change, the ego comes in. It literally is a threat. You're messing with my livelihood. And it's just understanding there's that period of time where the more you can just listen, ask questions, create clarity, the sooner your people are probably going to get on board, and if they don't, then they don't, and you can say this was probably not the right place for you can treat people with dignity. You don't have to be upset by it. I mean, resistance is normal. It's not a permanent state. But most of the time, because leaders themselves, who decide to change are already on board. They forget that you got to bring people along with you a little bit. And so again, my methodology tries to really simplify that, because most leaders are doing this off the side of their desk, and yet it's become a huge part of their job.

Robert Plank 11:34 This is huge. Well, there's definitely a lot to navigate here, right? And you're saying that we're running all this outdated software, right? There's the got, like the physical right? There's like the caveman brain, which we have to unlearn that. And then there's like the social construct of the command and control. And this is how it is. And I already decided you say, Well, hey, that the times have changed. The times are changing, and we need to have a better approach. And what comes to mind, as you're mentioning all this, is that the term objections, right? If you say, Well, you know, someone disagrees with me, well, when someone raises like, objections in the court, right? Could be like, sustained or overruled, at least, that's how it is on TV, right? Or so if someone brings up something, you're not just bullying, you're not just fighting or shutting them down. You're saying, hey, like, that's a valid concern. Let's work on that, or let's spend the time it takes to come around and have the buy in on the idea. And so you say, Well, you're not just making this up, right? It's based on science, plus you have this methodology you mentioned. You have the forward method. You have this excellent book. So what's the forward method all about?

Elizabeth Moran 12:36 So again, when I was I spent most of my time inside organizations, and no matter, I was at Bloomberg, I was at Lehman Brothers, and then lastly, I was at ADP. So large or small organizations doesn't really matter. Those were all different sizes, but most of the time they still, leaders still couldn't get it right. So I developed this approach with the heads of the business who were trying to make change. So we tied, traded out. What are the essentials from a project standpoint, what do you need to provide people so that they it's more likely they'll decide to get on board sooner versus resist? So the methodology is, you know, do you have a clear vision that I have five questions, what's changing? Why? What happens if we don't change? What are we moving from and moving to? And what are the benefits we're hoping to achieve. And then I also have, you know, a couple of other things that help the one team get on board. Then I have an approach, which is a very simplified approach. When somebody you encounter a tough question or reaction from somebody, I have scripts in the book like the four toughest questions you could get. So I have a it's very simple, and ultimately it's you. You answer questions by asking questions. I love, by the way, what you just said, because in that case, most of the time business leaders are especially entrepreneurs are always selling. They're in sales mode. So just so you said, you think about a client who you're struggling with. Usually, if there is an objection, you dig in, you ask some questions, and then once you find out what it is, then simply by asking a couple of well placed questions, like, for instance, hey, that's a great question. I think I understand why you're asking it, or it seems like you're upset by this change. I think I understand why. But could you help me understand what's going on for you? How are you seeing this? What's going to work? What's not going to work? You do that same thing. And again, sometimes people just don't like the fact that they really liked it the way it was, and now you're making them a beginner again. They were mastery level at the way they were doing it. Now they have to start again. You know what? Fair enough. It's fine. You don't have to convince somebody. Actually, as a leader, one of the most generous things you can do is simply allow somebody their reaction. You don't have to argue with them. Learn. Little bit more, and oftentimes people just need some time to adjust, let it sink in, and then have some conversations. Business leaders do this all the time. It's just if you start to view your people almost like your clients or customers, that I think can make it a little easier

Robert Plank 15:19 100% and I love the counterintuitiveness and the playfulness of all this, right, this weird idea that if there's a problem, we should be seeing that problem, right? We should be figuring it out, and like our natural instincts are, to avoid conflict, avoid problem, to pursue it.

Elizabeth Moran 15:36 Yeah, that's the thing when this is what our brain says when we are uncomfortable, uncomfortable, our brain says, there's a problem. There's a problem. Stop. That's the instinct you're overriding. You're saying, No, this is uncomfortable because we're learning something new. My fight or flight reaction, Robert, if you were to start getting really upset with me, it would start to activate. But I don't have to act like I'm not in a life threatening situation. I could be like, Okay, I have to tolerate the discomfort and move forward anyway. And this is the thing that and again, when you talked about this earlier, one of the things that can help people move, especially if people are stuck in fear, is optimism. The neuroscience of optimism is really powerful and again, counter intuitive. But what we now know is that optimism is not only a feeling you get when something goes well, it's the fuel needed so you're not ignoring challenges or difficulties. You're simply trying to free a brain stuck in fear of that three times more psychological weight than negativity bias. And how do you do that? You take a moment and you say, okay, together. What could go right with this change, even if we're having a hard time right now, what's a shared vision we could create of what we're trying to do what could be better for us, our people. And you hold on to that, you engage that the research says that the more people have that this common, shared, positive future vision, the more likely it is to happen. But and your people, your entrepreneurs, know this, oftentimes they had to hold this vision. They still have to hold the vision of what they're trying to create despite all these obstacles. Is it tough? Yes, but there's something that's getting them through that's the same idea here that we're trying to create. So your entrepreneurs, your folks, these small business leaders are primed and skilled and are already changed, leader expert. They just have to remember,

Robert Plank 17:48 Oh, they just need to realize it and unlock some of these stuff and some of these ideas, like I think about them sometimes, and then forget, and then remember again and forget again. And if, no matter what I'm building, whether it's myself or with a team, it doesn't happen by accident, right? If I'm making a book, making a website, making a web page, it's like, well, I need to know what it will look like. Otherwise, how will I know when I've gotten there and those times that like it stuck, writers walk, distracted, procrastination, you name it. It's when I didn't have that clear vision, that clear picture, and like, having the goal doesn't guarantee success, but it sure as heck gives you, like, some percentage likelihood, versus just winging it and hoping it looks out and maybe I'll know it when I see it. Well, that doesn't sound like a recipe for success at all. And so in these last few minutes, I want to make sure that we focus on what really drives you, because you said a lot of great stuff, right? I love that. Optimism is the fuel. And you've said all these amazing things, and you said, Well, hey, you don't even have to believe me. Look at this science here that says that if you do this, if you have the positivity, if you deal with the conflict, you have the team on the same page, then here's how it's worked out for all these other organizations. And so you've given us some great stuff, but we're limited on time because we want to leave people with a taste and, you know, leave them wanting more. So in this conversation we're having here. Dr, Elizabeth Moran, what is the missing question in our conversation? What should I be asking you? I just don't know to ask you,

Elizabeth Moran 19:15 wow, that is a great question. I think you I mean, again, I'm a total nerd. I could talk about this forever. I think you have asked. The only other thing is, when I talk about the six step methodology, the other thing that a lot of leaders struggle with with change management is measuring it. So I offer it's also in the book, a pulse survey, because you're not trying to measure the ultimate success of your change, eventually you will, but those are a lot of lag measures. What you're trying to measure with change. I call it change leadership. Call it whatever you want. Doesn't matter to me is, how are your people on board? And so there's a very quick six question pulse survey that I offer. Again, it's in the book or. Where you can just check where are people at relative to this change. So I know, how have my efforts landed so far? But then also, what might I do? What my people need from me now to move forward?

Robert Plank 20:14 And so, right, right? And I'd expect nothing less. So you can find that that questionnaire in the book. It's called Ford, leading your team through change. It's on Amazon by Dr Elizabeth Moran. That last name is spelled M, O, R, A, N, and then you have this amazing website as well. Don't you? Elizabeth Moran transformation.com, and what's there?

Elizabeth Moran 20:35 So I there's a couple of things. One, you can get in contact with me. One, you can learn a little bit more and see the methodology, both for training leaders if you need that, or the specifically, how do we set up your change for success? The other thing I do is, if you have a change that's already left the station, but you don't feel it's going so well, that's another area I consult in. And okay, yeah, that's what I do. And also this special offer for any of your listeners. If they get the book and they heard, heard me here, through you, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, let me know that, and then I'm happy to give them free access to the audio book, which a lot of people like as well.

Robert Plank 21:16 Oh, yes, multiple modalities, right? You get it, you get it into your brain in different ways and so on LinkedIn, you just do a search for Elizabeth Moran,

Elizabeth Moran 21:26 should be able to find that Yeah,

Robert Plank 21:30 from from gross on Connecticut, and that's how you know you found the right person. She simplifies, leading through change for organizations and their leaders. And you can go to Elizabeth Moran transformation, and find out about that immediate impact, measurable results and sustainable change. And then the book, as we said, is forward leading your team through change. It's grounded in neuroscience, and it was developed in the real world with business leaders like you who were frustrated and overwhelmed by traditional change management approaches. And so if you said, I'm tired of the vagueness, I'm tired of just the generalities and people making stuff up, I'm not sure if I believe in it. Well, hey, that's because you needed someone who had this grounded in neuroscience, who dealt with companies of different sizes, as she said. And you check out this book, and you can jump into six coordinated activities to guide leaders and support teams going through transformation. We said that book is forward, leading your team through change. The website is Elizabeth Moran, transformation.com, and on LinkedIn. Dr, Elizabeth Moran, but before I let you go, Elizabeth, it's time for the scary part of the show where I try to stump you. I try to put you on the spot by asking you about a fun or interesting quote or lesson that has served you in life or in business. So what do you have for us for a fun quote or lesson?

Elizabeth Moran 22:53 Fun quote is from Mark Twain. I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened, and that to me, is the negativity bias in action right there,

Robert Plank 23:08 yes, or our anxiety, our imagination sure messes with us. And so why not actually deal with reality as it comes to us? And you can check that out by getting the book. Dr Elizabeth Moran offers leaders, teams and organizations a simplified, structured and proven approach to navigate and evolve through constant change, and it's from this book called forward, which is a neuroscience based approach that helps people lead through and manage change with greater confidence and skill. So if the change has led that left the station, or if you need help getting your team on board, then you go and you get that book forward, leading your team through change on Amazon. That's step one. Step number two, you go on LinkedIn, you tell Dr Elizabeth Moran that you found her on the marketer of the day podcast, and she will give you the hook up, as the kids say, to the audiobook version, that way you can listen to it to your heart's content. And so thank you for being here, Elizabeth and helping us out as a change nerd to get our heads set on straight. Tell us what we need to know. I appreciate you being here.

Elizabeth Moran 24:13 Thank you so much for your time. Super excited to be here.

Robert Plank 24:17 All right.