460: Get Into the Coaching, Growth and Learning Mindset and Become Emotionally Intelligent with Caroline Stokes

Robert Plank 0:00 Marketer of the day number 460 get into the coaching, growth and learning mindset and become emotionally intelligent with Caroline Stokes. Hey everyone, and thanks for listening. We're talking right now with Caroline Stokes. And Caroline is the founder of forward, which is an executive head hunting and coaching firm for innovation leaders and the emotionally intelligent recruiter designed to help evolve recruiters in the AI age. You can find out about that at the forward.co and Caroline started her career in consumer entertainment and technology marketing, brand and PR, and she decided it was the brain behind human decision making on company evolution that was more inspiring. So we're going to unpack lots of fun stuff find out what all that stuff means. So Caroline, how's it going today?

Caroline Stokes 0:49 Today is fantastic. I'm in Vancouver, and I have to tell you, we've had something like 30 days of constant rain and the sun is out. So you're actually calling me when I'm feeling so fantastic because the sun is out.

Robert Plank 1:01 Oh no. Well, hopefully we'll make this conversation quick and you can run outside in the sun while you still have it, right? Thanks, Robert. Super, great. So can you tell us kind of what your company does, and what it is that you do, and what just has you fired up lately?

Caroline Stokes 1:14 So I'm fine out about a lot of things. Thank goodness. My husband actually tells me I'm a workaholic, and I probably agree with him. So I have two companies forward. Is all about headhunting for very, very hard to find senior talent, specifically the unicorns that the companies need to evolve their companies moving forward. And usually they're very, very senior. So we're working with a lot of SaaS companies on the west coast and in Montreal, specifically to find their leaders there, which is always very challenging and very fun, focusing on those and the big thing that we launched this year was actually the emotionally intelligent recruiter. It's a separate company specifically designed to help recruiters evolve in the AI age, as you've probably seen in the news that you've got the World Economic Forum that specifically says that by 2020 with AI and all of the bots and with the data, etc, that is evolving, what is required now are for people, for talent, to be more emotionally intelligent. So with that information in mind, and the fact that organizations actually have recruiters at the front of the front of, front of door, front of house, specifically attracting talent and to manage the candidate experience, managing the employer brand, they need to develop their emotional intelligence in the AI age so they're able to manage the data, manage The candidates, and ensure that they're able to evolve successfully. So that's what I think I'm most excited about, because it's a huge change. It's a huge shift that is happening in the recruiting environment.

Robert Plank 2:50 So you mentioned a few times this idea of emotional intelligence, or being emotionally intelligent. So what does that mean? Exactly? Well,

Caroline Stokes 2:58 we're all emotionally intelligent. We have a brain. We have emotional intelligence. So that's the good news. Okay, I want to make sure that that is 100% clear. It's a bit like IQ. Everybody has an IQ, but it's how we use our our emotional impulses, our emotional behaviors, in correctly, in the right moment, and being able to adapt and being able to evolve in those particular moments. So I'll give you an example. So with recruiters, they are incredibly stressed. I mean, who isn't? Quite frankly, Robert, we're all very, very stressed with the amount of work that we have to do. However, we can use our brains, because that's what, that's what makes us function day in day out, to enable us to manage all of those different processes that much easier with and as I like to call it, to be like the swan gliding across the lake rather than the the duck that you know is having a troll get getting out of the water. And you know, really having having difficulties. So emotional intelligence is very important if you've had any experience with another human being, if they're stressed out and they're angry at you, or they're disappointed, or any range of emotions, you feel it and that impacts on how you relate to that person, potentially, especially if there's somebody that you haven't met before. So to develop your emotional intelligence as a recruiter, it enables you to manage and process the communications in a much more effective manner, and that that would be for the candidate, for the for the internal or external clients, and, of course, for your peers, so you so you're able to perform a lot better. But it's all about just to answer your question right at the very beginning. It's about social and emotional functioning and how you manage, how you manage stuff in the moment. So

Robert Plank 4:44 what does that look like? Exactly? Does it look like being able to handle stress, being able to handle criticism, or like, like, what sort of, what sort of attributes, or what sort of benefits does someone have if they have good, emotional tele.

Caroline Stokes 4:59 Intelligence. So thank you. I love that question in terms of what, what are the attributes? So what I want to say is that it isn't a case of necessarily, and I'm not shutting you down here. It's I just want to be very careful about how we say, you know, who has good emotional intelligence, who doesn't? It's really not a case of that. It's being able to tap into your emotional responses in a very timely manner. So, and it's not necessarily about, you know, being being pessimistic or negative about somebody's emotional intelligence, but I'll give you an example. So supposing you've got a client on the phone, and the or an email comes through, and that client says, Oh, we've decided that we're no longer going to have that we're no longer going to do that search, because whatever business reasons an individual needs to be able to manage that in the moment without freaking out. We all have, we all have those life moments right there and then whereby we look at, we look at a situation and we're and typically, we think to ourselves, oh my gosh. You know, I was really expecting that business to come through because I've got to put the deposit on a mortgage, or I'm waiting for that to come through so I can put brakes on the car, or I'm waiting for this to come through because this business to come through because Christmas is around the corner and I really want to get my child a Nintendo Switch or anything like that. When you have all of those burdens on going on in your brain, all of those things that are happening that can put that additional stress level, for example, and this is just one level of emotional intelligence. So there are, there are about 15 sub scales that I could go into in depth, but it would just take too long, and would be here for days. But we'll use that as an example whereby somebody's response is like, oh god, that's that sucks. They may respond negatively to the individual. They may respond negatively to their to their peak, to their team. They may respond negatively when they get home and they kick the cat, all of those different things. Anyone that has is able to tap into their emotional intelligence, is able to look at the situation and go, Okay, I understand so that that's where empathy comes in. I understand why that company is having to do that so they take that beat. So there's that understanding curiosity might come in at that particular point and say, okay, so what is it that that that person is is needing, what kind of problems need to be solved at that particular time? How are you going to close it off so you're not actually putting the other person in that difficult situation whereby they go, You know what that person that I've just spoken to, that recruiter that I've just spoken to, is a complete jerk? Their response to that was, was terrible. You're looking at creating that optimal environment for them. And then there's the So, that's the So, there's empathy, being able to respond appropriately. And then you've got other aspects in terms of and that also ties in, sorry to kind of go back to it again, but impulse control, being able to manage your impulse. Your impulse might be, Oh, that sucks, responding negatively, your tonality changing, and all of those things that can jeopardize that relationship and jeopardize your professionalism, how you communicate to your team, and they may lose faith in you, and so on and so forth. So it's it's a really wide, it's a really broad topic of conversation, and that's just one example. And the benefit of of developing your emotional intelligence as a recruiter is that with recruiters, they don't typically get the kind of leadership development that you would expect them to have within an organization, like other other people do, and that, to me, is is a huge opportunity for for recruiters, because if they can develop their emotional intelligence, they're going to be able to succeed for the company and for themselves, for the both the short term, for the immediate, immediate term, the short term, and for the long term, and the results then then develop.

Robert Plank 8:47 So is there a reason, like you mentioned in there, that the recruiters don't usually get the leadership training that they need, that your program provides? Is there a reason for that? Is there a reason why they're overlooked in this way,

Caroline Stokes 8:59 it's usually the lowest hanging fruit that comes to mind when it comes to development for recruiters, they typically get the technology training that they need to get. I was at a conference last week at recruiter trends. I did a talk specifically about emotional intelligence for recruiters. And one thing I learned that I kind of knew, but I haven't put a number on it, is that recruiters deal with about eight to 15 different types of technology when they're having to work with candidates, when they're working with their clients, internal or external, and that's that just takes up all of their time. How are they able to just stop and think and actually work out what their emotional response might be to something that could actually jeopardize their communications with a candidate or an internal or external client and so on. It's just, it's that, to me, was just the proof that so much emphasis goes into training for the actual tools, whereas it's the training for the actual brain, so they're able to manage all of those tools in an intelligent way that is actually going. To create the best possible results.

Robert Plank 10:02 So when, when people come to you, and so they have the training as far as the the tools, the technology, but maybe not so much the the emotional intelligence. So where are they stuck? Like are they usually all starting from a common starting point? Do they usually have the same set of problems? How does that picture look?

Caroline Stokes 10:24 That's great. I think, if I understand question, the question, what is the what is the problem that the universal problem that all recruiters face, and I think the universal problem that recruiters face, and all human beings face, is that we're expected to do a huge amount of work with very little time with reduced budgets, with time with a lot of pressures to deliver remarkably quickly. The good news is, is that there's a lot of technology coming down the pipeline. As you know, Robert, you're a tech guy, and you know that there's a lot of technology that's coming in, and that's fantastic. But there's also the human aspect that is equally important. And everyone and everything that I read online right now is all talking about, hey, you know, the human needs to be developed as well, and that, to me, is one of the most important and most crucial aspects that whilst we have no time, we can actually work a lot more intelligently about how we do that, without everyone jumping to the conclusion of, oh, we need a new app for that. We have to understand how the brain works, how we each individually work from an operating system, because we all have our own operating systems. If we use the technology system for you, Robert, you're a you're a tech guy. We we've got our own hard drives. We've got our own random access memory, etc, etc. And the challenge we have with our brains is that if we have been leading for so long with our emotional responses, which is human, by the way, it is 100% human, we're used to these chemicals flooding, flooding our brain and having those systems that we're used to doing to try and change that takes time. And this is where coming in from a recruiter oriented aspect for emotional intelligence, I believe is is most crucial for recruiters to develop in the AI age.

Robert Plank 12:04 Okay, so what's your training like? What when, like when you begin to, you know, you said that there's like, 15 different things that need to be worked on, and stuff like that. It sounds a little bit overwhelming. So how do you begin taking recruiters through that process of having it all figured out? Great

Caroline Stokes 12:22 question. And you're right, it is overwhelming, because you have to number one, think about the 15 different sub scales with the five different composites that go along with the emotional, emotional intelligence. And I've got various courses that are designed specifically for whatever anyone wants to be able to take it any at any one time, and they all kick off in January. But the bottom line is that there is an assessment tool that is called the EQ 2.0 that I do directly with that, with the recruiters. And what happens from that is that they are then able to see through coaching with myself, there's one to one coaching that goes on for four months specifically to help them adapt. Nobody, but nobody reads a 360 for example, you're in a large organization receiver 360 you might adapt on one particular thing that might jump out at you with an EQ 2.0 and the course that goes on with regards to a 360 within the organization is very, very close with the individuals, and that enables the individuals or recruiters to adapt rapidly. Otherwise, most other coaches will take maybe one or two years to actually adapt. We're looking at very, very fast changes that are necessary. And guess what? We all know that change hurts, but it is the most important thing is the type of thing that I remember when I went through my executive coaching certification at Royal Roads University many years ago, it was painful because when you're having to change, when you're having to adapt, when you have to when you have to change your beliefs or your the way that your brain operates, it's a painful process, because you're all of a sudden, you're learning that what You were doing actually wasn't very good. And here you're, you're you have the opportunity to actually do it in a much more intensive period of time and and adapt it, adapt your abilities in real time within your recruiting environment. You don't have to take a six month, you know, to or a year off, or you're off work to be able to do it. It's done within the work environment so the recruiter can adapt so and just going back to your first point, which is about the 15 the 15 sub scales on development, when you look at your assessment, you can see very clearly from that where you're where you've got your strengths, where you've got your areas that need to be developed. And when you combine all of those, and you work out what your goals are and how you're going to reach them, and you work with a coach, you're able to to develop them, and it's all very productive.

Robert Plank 14:49 Well, cool. So if I'm understanding you, right, so, so based on the assessment that that changes the training that comes out. So that way the person isn't wasting tons of times on things that are. And important is that correct,

Caroline Stokes 15:01 absolutely, and that's that's the most critical thing, because if you if it isn't designed for the individual, you're not, you're gonna find some people that will take a year to get to that, you know, great. You know, the holy grail of being able to adapt their emotional intelligence. And that's fine, because everyone goes at their own pace of being able to work. But in general, the beauty of having the Q 2.0 assessments, and I do this with various CEOs and other senior people with regards to executive coaching, is that it expedites that development rapidly. And it's, it's, it's, it's a wonderful tool. Well, great.

Robert Plank 15:36 Well, do you have any interesting stories about this process? Do you have a story of like, maybe a recruiter that that you found, or who came to you and took this assessment, and then, based on that, had some kind of path to go down, and some kind of training to to follow to get to that finish line.

Caroline Stokes 15:51 Lots of, lots of examples. And I think the best example was actually somebody that I'm not necessarily going to use a recruiter, because if I use a recruiter, everybody's going to think that that is, that is the gold standard, because everyone is unique, and this is, this is the, the important aspect. But I'll give you an example of somebody that I I've got a few examples of executive producer on a SAS product, and he had just moved from one particular country, one country, to another, and he had to learn new cultures. He had to learn how to adapt in an organization in a very political situation. Had to grow very quickly in understanding how he could adapt based on his own biases, His own and His own situation. You know, when we move into an environment, we often just underestimate how much change we have to, we have to go through. And we often don't understand what land mines there are within, within a particular situation. So when coaching this particular individual, we went through the EQ, and he was, he was very, very wonderful, because he said, Caroline, I am taking a shortcut here. I've read the book already, so I feel like I'm cheating already. But as far as I was concerned, it was great, because he understood without maybe going through one or two sessions already, just how much change he had to adapt to. So I think the kind of the benefit here of me telling you this particular story is that he was already curious. This is the cure. This is the best thing. Recruiters, executive producers, CEOs. Anyone that has that learning mindset, that growth mindset, is able to go in and say, yep, I want to learn. And I'm going to start reading about this now. Anyone that has that attitude right now is going to do extremely well. So I'll go back to this guy that I was talking about this, this wonderful executive producer after the three months program. He then wanted to have his EQ tested again. He said, I'm really curious to understand what my EQ is. Can you do the assessment? I said, Well, you know, this will cost extra money, but I am very curious. I want to see the results as well. So we did it, and he was honest. And this is the the interesting thing, you have to be honest throughout this, throughout throughout all of this, otherwise you're just fooling yourself. You're not able to develop if you, if you're if you're faking your your your responses. And actually, the tool will identify whether or not somebody is faking it, and then the test has to be retaken. But he responded, and you could see that there was that was between a 20 and 30% point lift in the areas that he had really worked on. And he was absolutely delighted. And he came along from it saying, Yep, I'm really happy with how things had developed. And we continued with it, with the coaching relationship to work in the other areas as well. But the point is, is that he even now has that coaching mindset. He has that growth mindset and that learning mindset. He's constantly learning and wanting to develop and improve his service, the way he produces his work, and so on and so forth. And that, that is the that is the whole situation right there and then. Otherwise, he would have quit his role, he there would have been a lot of fallout from potentially him not being committed to that process by having that learning mindset.

Robert Plank 19:10 That's super interesting. And can you give us a little bit of a taste of like, what sort of actions are taken in order to get to some of these breakthroughs? Because it's one thing to say, Okay, well, you take the assessment. Here are the areas that that are weakening to focus on, but like, what sort of things are actually done in that middle area to, you know, improve? Yeah, great

Caroline Stokes 19:30 question. It's, it's weekly commitment. It's like going to the gym, Robert, I don't know if you go to the gym and you, you know, do any bench presses, and you remember that maybe two years ago when you started it, maybe you weren't particularly happy with what you saw in the mirror. And then two years later, holy smokes. It's about being able to commit to a program and being able to work on it day by day by not day by day by day, but also week by week by week. So the difference but with this is. That every single week there is going to be learning, there's feedback, there's feedback loops, and there's one to one coaching to enable that individual to grow and to develop, and that that's the cornerstone of anyone being able to develop. There is no little blue pill or red pill associated with just making this that much better. Reading a book is one level of being able to learn, but actually having a coach like everybody says Bill Gates says it, everybody says it, which is that you need a coach. And I'm probably one of the the from my understanding, I am the only recruiter coach out there specifically focused on on ensuring that recruiters can evolve in the AI age. Well,

Robert Plank 20:39 super great. And you mentioned a couple of times that sometimes non recruiters have gone through this program or taking this test. So did I hear you right? And like, Absolutely, besides, recruiters can take this then, Oh, absolutely,

Caroline Stokes 20:52 so, so the EQ 2.0 is available to for use for everyone. I mean, emotional intelligence is is not just restricted to one particular sector. So yes. So for example, I coach CEOs and head of companies, head of studios, executive producers, CTOs, you name it. And using this particular tool, the EQ 2.0 tool is which is a psychometrically approved assessment and tool by the American Association, is absolutely crucial at being able to expedite that particular change, and we use it at the beginning of all of our coaching engagements.

Robert Plank 21:35 Okay? So if someone's listening right now and they're wondering if they're a good fit for this EQ 2.0 tool. How do they know if it's for them or if it's not for them? If

Caroline Stokes 21:47 they have a brain, they have emotional intelligence, if they want to develop themselves so they are able to adapt, grow, thrive, be more successful, it's it's a it's an assessment tool that it with with a coach. It has to be used with a coach, because it's like anything you can do an online assessment. And okay, there you go. I'm a Myers, Brigg, ENTP, or whatever I am. And you find that out, then what do you do with it? You know, it's you. You need to have a coach that is able to support you through the transition on the on your ideal, big, hairy, audacious goal.

Robert Plank 22:22 Okay, great. So if someone's listening right now today, and they say, You know what? You convinced me, I've heard about all these benefits. I need to get my emotional intelligence more dialed in. I need to have more of that growth, that learning mindset. Where should they go right now to kind of move things along and take the next step

Caroline Stokes 22:40 with you? Well, they can reach out to me. Actually, the best thing to do, I was going to give you a whole list, but I think the best place to go to is my website, which is the e i recruiter.com and there they can download 70 tips, specifically from authors and various other people after, because I've also got a podcast, the emotionally intelligent recruiter, and they are then able to download those tips, and they'll also be put onto a mailing list to receive further information.

Robert Plank 23:08 Super great. So the I recruiter.com is the place to get those 70 tips, and then, in the same action, get on Caroline's email list, and that way you'll be notified about the latest podcast episodes and all the latest happenings, is that right? Caroline, 100% right. Thank you. Robert, super great. You're very welcome. And so instead of loading you guys up with a bunch of URLs and things to go to, just make it keep it simple, and go to the eirecruiter.com and fill in the form there. And that way you'll get access to all the information you need. And then make sure to check your email inbox. That way you'll get notified about the latest and greatest things happening. As far as that, that recruiter podcast. And can you give us a little bit of a tip of maybe some of the recent topics in that podcast? To give us an idea,

Caroline Stokes 23:53 we have aI experts, we have emotional intelligence experts, authors on for recruiters, on how to reinvent their their themselves, because this is a time for reinvention. Dory Clark is a celebrated author. She's got a trilogy out from Harvard Business Review and Penguin. She's on there about how recruiters can adapt. We also have let me see. We've got Marshall Goldsmith coming on, who is one of the one of the biggest, most influential coaches after Tony Robbins coming on in the new year, lots of different people, authors, leadership experts, and also, I should also add recruiting experts from Silicon Valley, specifically talking about how emotional intelligence is important in the Aih, well,

Robert Plank 24:42 sounds super fantastic. So so do those of you out there listening, if you've ever been curious about how to get your your mindset better tuned into what you're trying to do, as far as your entrepreneurial journey or your career, or whatever we got going on, then check out the EI recruiter.com so that way you can. And get in this program, take these tests, figure out how to get your emotional intelligence better, and whether that's where you're a recruiter, a CEO, whatever you are, you need to get the skill kind of honed in there, and then while you're also there, well, then you're gonna check about all these great things happening with artificial intelligence, with recruiting, and anything in between. So once again, the E i recruiter.com we see you over there, and thanks so much Caroline for stopping by and for sharing some of this great stuff that you figured out, as far as recruiters, as far as getting better connected, as far as getting our head right, lots of great material. And I really appreciate it.

Caroline Stokes 25:36 I appreciate it even more. Thank you so much for your time. Robert,

Robert Plank 25:40 subscribe to us right now, while it's still fresh on your mind at marketer of the day.com/itunes, you.