946: On The Map: Maximize Your Law Firm’s SEO Efforts with Kristaps Brencans

Robert Plank 0:04 Hey, and welcome back to the marketer of the day podcast. We're here with Chris Rankins. And he is the CEO of a full service law firm digital marketing agency. They are called on the map. And we're going to be talking about local SEO tracking leads and SEO efforts, law keywords, finding and hiring top talent. Lots of exciting stuff. So Chris, glad to be talking to you,

Speaker 2 0:26 Robert. Likewise, I'm really excited to be on your podcast and what an intro Wow. I really describe it.

Robert Plank 0:35 Yeah. And my job is to make you look good, but also to be curious, because, you know, I'm obviously not a lawyer myself, but who knows who is tuning in and listening to this. And it's always fun to get kind of an outsider's perspective looking in. And so the only I know basically two things about about internet marketing combined with lawyers, one is there was an internet marketer named Frank Kern a bunch of years ago, and he told some kind of story where he would periodically check like the county, like the jails nearby, like the websites and was in jail for like DUIs. And then he would like send a courier every day and send these like packets and hook up these kind of offenders with, like, DUI expert lawyers, and I thought like, that's kind of a cool like, urgent, and like a smooth process once you got that going. And the the second thing I know about attorneys and internet marketing is like, some are really dialed in. Like, there's a couple of like, kind of fun characters, almost like Better Call Saul types who like do like the regular YouTube shorts and the tiktoks. And they say things like, you know, if if a cop knocks on your door, do this, and either way, it's a lot of fun. So how do you fit in with those kinds of extremes? Like what did what? And how do you make a difference here?

Speaker 2 1:56 You know, I was not expecting that segue into attorney marketing. But I totally love it, because it does describe how extreme it can get. And the reason why it is so extreme, it's because it's highly competitive. You know, number one thing you need to look at which practice area the respective law firm is practicing. So, you know, there's probably like pig five big segments, I would say corporate law, they, their marketing is more business to business. So now they're spending more time on LinkedIn, sort of like regular business to business marketing, they're trying to bring on Uber as a client, you know, like, how are you gonna approach it? Probably, Uber executives are not searching Oh, corporate attorney, they probably are looking at okay, who has represented certain types of huge auto companies before in you know, IPOs, mergers, etc. Then there's personal injury, and that's, that's where the heavy hitters come in. That's sort of the Billboards, radio ads, the YouTube Instagram Tiktok shorts that you're talking about, there's a guy top dog law, he's he's doing some interesting things. We like very, out there, billboards. And quick sidenote on the personal Personal Injury aspect. Personal Injury keywords are some of the most expensive keywords that you can buy in AdWords. There was one point that mesothelioma keyword was worth, I think one click was like $500, average Personal Injury keywords like Car Accident Lawyer, New York, those run up to two $300 per click. So the competition and the return on that investment can be really high because of the settlements and different type of scenarios that provide the revenue for the law firm and for their person they're representing. Now then you also have criminal law. I would say that's the second most competitive right after personal injury, because the criminal law cases also can be pretty high, you know, people will pay a lot of money to stay out of jail. Kind of the scenario you're talking about in criminal law. interesting aspect to the strategy you described is direct mail. If there is an area where direct mail still works, that is criminal law, marketing, maybe you gotten a ticket or you know, some of your relatives like I just know, police ticket when police pulls you over, you will get a direct mail flyer from some law company because that's public information. And it's pretty easy to target those people because they know already who had a ticket and then they end up marketing. Then there's family law. And after family law, another interesting one is workers comp. And then of course, there's real estate, immigration and so really, you have to think about law firms as like a business models like what which practice area they're focusing on. Usually the ones that are doing everything are not really big on marketing. They probably are in some smaller, smaller cities. So it's easier if you're the only attorney or a few other attorneys in some area. Obviously you can do different types of, you know, law like practice law, you can practice different type of laws. But in a bigger cities, you're going to find those niches and then you have to figure out how do you separate yourself within that niche. You know, if you're a personal injury lawyer in Miami, what separates you? And that's where we come in. So we help attorneys with search engine marketing, oh, that means SEO, PPC, very big aspect in law firm SEO is Google Map rankings, we focus a lot on Google Map rankings, because the local SEO space, there's not that many searches, you know, you think about it, like how many people are gonna get in car accidents, how many people are gonna get arrested, or they're gonna get DUIs. It's not like buying basketball shoes, where there's millions of searches a month, these are relatively limited searches. And hence why Google is putting such a high price tag on those clicks. Because, you know, one settlement can be worth several million dollars. So that's why the competition is high for to get those clicks. And SEO ends up being a lot cheaper in some cases, because you're building your own equity and you know, the, the amount of money you need to spend on SEO versus if you were to run PPC campaign, it differs quite a bit. And we can get into specific numbers if you want to as well. So I kind of gave you like an overview of how to think about attorney marketing specifically, I guess, from all aspects, maybe some initial trigger thoughts coming to your mind where I can double click on more? Yeah,

Robert Plank 6:41 I mean, I guess the trigger thoughts just to kind of take take my mind back on on the journey you took us. So you're saying there's these five categories, there's these five buckets. And unless you're in a small town, if your law firm, you specialize in one of the five. And then it's like the overall strategy is to look at where people are looking right? Look at where those customers are at whether it's on LinkedIn, or if it's a paid search. And in each of these categories, there's the different pros and cons different sorts of rules of the game. But then, and I can also tell that you're, you focus on on the the numbers and the percentages soon, and you'd hope so right? If you're a digital agency, and like when you look at because it's it's a common mistake, right? If someone is just some kind of business, like just some kind of law firm, and they say, Oh, well, one paid ads, how hard could it be? And then guys, like you and me are saying, well hang on a second, there's this cost per click. And if it's $500 per click, and I mean, you might, someone clicks, it doesn't mean they'll fill out a form doesn't mean they're even going to want to talk to you. So then you have like a percentage of who's even going to be talking to you, and who can you can get to convert how much money you make from them. And then it's like, okay, then you can kind of make a logical step based on those all the percentages and all the different steps of the funnel there. And so I guess what, what all that leads to, is based on all of those different sort of categories, like which one is your favorite? And do you like them all? Do you focus on one? What's the kind of half? What's the door open?

Speaker 2 8:14 So our our, I'd say, big two is Personal Injury and Criminal. That's where we spent a lot of time and just from business perspectives, they also have pretty big marketing budgets, family law is I would say he's 31. But Personal Injury and Criminal is where we focus a lot. One, because they have big marketing budgets, too. They appreciate search engine optimization, they know it can work, and they see competitors that it works for, and then the clients that we have in our roster, you know, they're seeing great return on it as well. Interesting fact to talk about, you know, any SEO agencies say, oh, let's jump into lawyer Seo like we can rank law firms, video time you can, but there's certain nuances you need to figure out one working with attorneys, they're highly picky about the content you're creating. So especially writing specific content on their practices, their practicing, if it's car accident page, and then certainly aspects of the law. With the settlement amounts are in Florida versus New York, you know, you can mix up that information that can be that can reflect really badly on them, because there's also bar regulations that regulate their operation. You know, at the end of the day, they are representing people and they need to think they're held at higher standard than just an average, you know, maybe plumber SEO agency, because, you know, attorneys are representing someone's lives. Now, what I also want to mention on this is over the years, we've been able to kind of dig into this deeper thinking about SEO. You're building topical authority on some ones website, your website becomes like a content bank. So for law firms, the same thing happens within their respective practice areas. It's hard to rank a website for Personal Injury and Criminal unless you're someone's in a smaller city. So we pick one city, we saying, Alright, you're going to rank for a personal injury lawyer, Los Angeles, highly competitive term. So and then you build in build out all these information blocks within a website. So if it's a personal injury, you have car accident page, you have slip and fall page, motorcycle accident truck accident. Now let's say you have a page about Truck Accident Lawyer, Los Angeles, then you need to write supporting content during that one page, right, you're not going to have a 10,000 word page. So some interesting things we've been doing. We're writing sporting content, like Amazon truck, accident lawyer, FedEx truck accident lawyer, because they get in accidents as well. So someone might say, oh, FedEx just rear ended me, what should I do, or I'm an accident. So that's how you start building out these content banks, and they need a very, they need to be very specific. So if I'm a personal injury attorney in Los Angeles, it's need to be specific to California laws need to be specific to my practice area. And that's when we build out this content, really in depth, you know, we have a whole like a silo structure, because for a car accident page alone, we have to write like 15 sporting articles. And now some interesting things that are happening. We're trying to speed up some of this process with Chad GPT. Not saying we're launching the entire sporting content with Chad GPT. But we are filling in some of those gaps, because we we sort of already know what we need, right? So we have the formula, we know, Hey, you come on as a you know, Attorney plan comes on as an attorney, he's in Los Angeles, and you have no content or you have little bit content, and we need to build it out. We can blow it out pretty fast right now, like launched 50 to 6070 pages a month. Obviously, biggest, biggest approach for us is we generate song the content, but then there's a human editing aspect to it. Where it's fully factually correct. It makes sense. It just gives us a little bit leg up in you know, when when there's like a lot of ground to cover, this can be really helpful and we can enter the market faster. Just from content perspective,

Robert Plank 12:34 that is cool. I like your strategy. See you saying that you're you create this content bank, you look at what the what people are searching for words, their problems are these kinds of questions you ask again and again, but then also create the supporting content. So there's like a car accident page. But instead of having a big long page where someone might be on their phone, they have to go and find all that you say, well, if they're searching for something specific, Amazon truck accident, FedEx truck accident, so that way, you have the supporting content. And so just the thing they were searching is right there on the page. And then and you're saying that you use chat GPT as sort of not the magic box that like generates this because like there was this thing in the news a couple of weeks ago where like a lawyer got in trouble for that, like the judge was like, these three cases, they don't exist. But then what you hear a lot about with Chet GBT these days is when you use it as sort of your writing assistant, when you say, here's this content, digest it make up more about this. And then you see the output and then kind of like, revise it. And so you're working with the AI, that's less scary. And that seems like more of a sort of productivity booster. And so when that leads that leads to is so say someone is doing one of these sorts of searches, right? They search for like FedEx truck accident. And what's your thought process as far as like what you want them to do? Like they go in they search for FedEx truck accident, they go on the page? Do you always like to have like a, like a phone number or a form or a call to action? Or all the above? Or like what does that content lead to?

Speaker 2 14:03 Yeah, well, before I answer a question, FedEx truck accident lawyers searches are probably extremely low. But those cases are more than a lot. Probably more common direct response keyword would be Car Accident Lawyer. So or Truck Accident Lawyer, Truck Accident Lawyer, pretty common. And those are very high value cases. Because if truck gets gets an accident, it's you know, it's gonna get pretty messy. The standard stuff so the one three elements, phone number on top right corner, if it's for desktop, if it's on mobile, you want to have a sticky phone number, basically sticky menu where the phone number is always there because people will just click and call then a form and or live chat depending what is the intake system process because live chats can be really good to people just want to start a quick conversation like, oh, do I have a case? Oh, my back hurts. You know, kind of get quick details because people like average person doesn't Do a bit attorneys on daily basis, so they just naturally have a lot of questions. How does it work? What do you do? What do you need for me? And that's how the intake process starts. And, and of course, the forums. Sorry, no, I mentioned forums, forums, or live chat. And the third aspect, testimonials, that is the name of the game for conversions, the social proof of your service, people saying, hey, Attorney plank, helped me with my car accident case, I got $200,000 settlement, those type of things that fully affirm your service capabilities. And then you can either rotate them list them, I have seen attorneys actually do like really nice photography, where it looks like someone's holding a check. Like a really big check. Obviously, it's not a real check. But it's it's edited really nicely that it looks like it's it was a huge check. And a receipt, I'm seeing those on Billboard's to have to be a little bit careful with the bar regulations, whether you can or cannot say. But the social proof is huge. And those will be the main aspects I would put on one of these landing pages, make sure they load decently and and then you actually track these incoming calls and forms, you know, use some standard tracking mechanisms, we actually build one ourselves called track, right? You can give that right, you know, test drive, it's pretty easy to set it up. But you know, you just need to track your marketing, obviously, that's really, you know, common common thing. Yeah, it's

Robert Plank 16:47 it sounds like common sense enough as you speak it out now. But then it's also common to not do it right. It's way too easy to just set up that front piece and say, I've got the content figured out the fast website is all linked together. Rank, I'm checking my rankings, I'm joining the ads, but then dropping the ball. As far as the funneling. And you're making me think about like, you know, we've all had, have all those those moments in our lives, and we have to contact this or that attorney, right for family attorney, trademark attorney like whatever it is, like, especially business owners, right. And sometimes we need to find some specific attorney for something. And what would I might the process I ended up going through this is probably like once every, I don't know, five or six years for whatever the type of attorney is, I end up like, finding like four attorneys in my area. And then I end up I kind of discount like one or two, like just something's not quite right on the website, when they don't make the cut, right? Like, maybe two of them look mobile friendly. And the other two don't, I think maybe this is from, like 10 years ago. And then what ends up what has ended up happening is I send an email, or I do a phone call. And then one gets back to me like a day or two later. And then what never gets back or like weeks later, and it just from like, from a buyer's perspective. And you know, what happens with attorneys happens with contractors, this this whole idea of like, you almost you think in a perfect world, if I fill in a form for like an attorney, especially wouldn't I want to I'd be I'd be impressed on anything if I got a call back in like five minutes or like within the hour. And so I mean, what's your your philosophy on this? As far as like with the software you bill? And with you like having this kind of funnel dialed in? What are the like the best practices? What are people missing? As far as the follow up?

Speaker 2 18:35 I have to be honest with you, and this is one of the biggest hurdles V. V do that as well. You know, when we're working with our clients, there's this idea that, hey, as long as I get the leads, I'm gonna get the sales, but really, the from lead to sale. Step is still there. And we rely on the attorney to execute that on their team. Some attorneys have intake teams, some attorneys take these calls themselves. So imagine you're in a trial and you just got three leads, and you get out of the trial, and you're tired, you know, I need to call these people. It doesn't work. There's cases where phone calls not even being picked up. So my take on this is I mean, you just met you just described to yourself, the attorney that's going into business is the one that's going to get in touch the fastest. They're going to have the smoothest intake process and they will have follow up because people don't always convert right away obviously depends on the practice area. But the fundamentals are the same. You introduce yourself you understand their problem, you explain your service, how you can help them and that's, that's actually selling part, right. So it comes down to size to have a law firm out a lot of law firms have that generate a lot of leads, they have what they call intake teams. So these intake teams that are I held responsible to convert the leads into the actual cases and push them through their process after. But that response to the lead is everything I tell myself seem to I mean, there, once we get an inbound lead, it's a matter of minutes, and we're calling them. That's it's crucial, because like you said, you're shopping around, you're not just contacting one attorney, you just contacted five. So whoever gives the best first impression is the fastest, and has the smoothest onboarding process is the one who's going to win.

Robert Plank 20:35 I love it. And like I said at the beginning, this is why it's so much fun to jump into these different industries, where like, I personally am not familiar, but then you get from talking about it, too, because now now you're ranking for the SEO being on this podcast. But then there's a lot of these kinds of, like Best Practices type insights into these businesses where you say, Well, you know, in the in the super competitive, say, personal injury attorney niches, if this is once done, then maybe I can apply this in, in my own industry. And it's like, you know, if if you don't want to do that, if you want to follow up super fast, or follow that ball up at all, maybe that's why the business is struggling, or maybe that's why their business is not growing as much as they can, because those other businesses are out there somewhere where they're just getting back to people really quickly. And so you've you've kind of It seems like you've had a lot of fun, you you've dived into all these different areas and solve a lot of problems worked a lot of these law firms. And so in, in your many years here of getting these law firms digital marketing figured out, is there anything that's like surprise you and even that's been unexpected in your journey.

Speaker 2 21:42 Unexpected? This question was unexpected. Unexpected, I must say, I think this last two years have been more unexpected, Journey wise. And big reason is the shift that's happening in local SEO. There's two things happening one, Google is expanding their ads, offered ad services. So perhaps you have seen there's text ads, and then sometimes you have like these little card ads are called local service ads. So Google rolled that out about two years ago. And they're still there. And I'm sure you've heard the conversations around the search generative experience and how Google's going to change all their search engine result pages, like it's going to look completely different. But if it AI being integrated in it, so Google is trying to do is Google is trying to take away control from the advertisers. And LSA ads was one of the, like, really big attempts to do that. Because the yellow car ads, I mean, honestly, it's really interesting, because it's easy to run for anyone, like average business owner, or I didn't want to use word average, no one's average, but just business owner themselves can go in, set up the campaign and say, Hey, I'm willing to pay $500 per lead, and my budgets $10,000 and just max it out. And that's all you need to do. Only other aspects you can do is upload your picture and have Google Business Profile reviews on your, on your Google business profile. And Google thinks that information, they see that you're willing to spend money, they see that you were approved in a program because there's like steps you need to follow to get approved because they launch only actually Accredited Businesses, because they don't want affiliates to be on it. Or some guys in an apartment just trying to scan lottery playing middleman or something? Yes. Yeah. So only legitimate approved, businesses can be there. This program is not available for all businesses. I want to just give you a quick rundown the ones that are law firms, Home Services, and in some cases, I'm gonna say it was also some realtors. But it's kind of mixed, right, but for law firms is huge. And if someone's doing PPC, that's a big part of their budget. But here's the part, you can't really control it, like Google's controlling the algorithm who's going to be shown, and no one really knows how to influence it only real ways how you can influence it is your radius, and your Google reviews on those on your Google business profile. So that was a big kind of surprised that that happened. So we had focused on it, but again, you can't really control it as much. And then the other aspect is that right after that, you have the map results. So our work is invested a lot in these map results. And the map results are controlled similar as these LSA ads, because they're based on your reviews. So the more reviews you have the better map results you will have and map results are based on the proximity The closer I am to a business just like you think about like pizza shop near me, who's going to serve you closest pizza shops, you're searching for personal injury attorney, there's assuming that you still gotta go in and see and meet the attorney because there's going to be paperwork and other things happening. So Google's still certainly the closest ones around you. So big shift is happening right now to just local presence to these walk in businesses, we need to generate reviews for them, we need to have really good pictures, we need to create activity around these profiles, because not only the profile will rank better, and that's where 40% of the organic traffic does the SEO traffic is going and then the port right under that used to be so so valuable is becoming decreasing like the devalue of it's decreasing. Like especially for direct response keywords like Car Accident Lawyer, Miami, of course, there's longtail keywords like, Oh, my back hurts after accident, right? Go all out on those. And that's what we're doing building heavy heavy blog, banks just to drive those type of traffic keywords. But the main ones that we know we can get the highest return right, right away. The game is changing. And it's it's it's not any more just the website on organic rankings. It's really more about the Google Map results and and ad portion because Google has to make money. And yeah, that's been our biggest kind of shift. And surprise for me personally. Granted, I enjoy it. I love it. I love the dynamic of the search marketing. But you know, to your question, that's something that I've been, I have not expected.

Robert Plank 26:44 And that with Google, especially in the search engines, the only constant is changed, right? Like, it's, you can always expect them to pull the rug out from under you or create some new program. And that just kind of drives the home point for me very well of why a law firm needs a team like yours to just stay up to date on things. And if there's just the business owner trying to figure it out themselves, they've got better things to do, right. And if you have you're one web guy trying to keeping up with all this local SEO stuff, and organic ranking and paid SEO, I mean, it just seems overwhelming versus someone like you who I can tell like you're you're up to date about it, you're passionate about it, you don't ignore the fundamentals. And it's just and you're specialized. So if someone of a law firm in one of these five categories needs your help, it makes a lot of logical sense to at least have that conversation and for for them to get in your funnel, because you're all about these funnels, right and funneling prospects, so that way they go and, like, contact that attorney. And then when they have a good experience, you funnel them into those reviews. So that way, the maps and the local SEO and all that, you know, makes a lot gets the ranking that it deserves. And so if someone says, okay, a lot of this makes sense. I'm ready to take the next step. I want to have that conversation when I contact Chris, his company, his team, how does a law firm know if they're a right fit for you? And what's that next step? How do they get in touch?

Speaker 2 28:06 Yeah, so it's a three step process. We always start with discovery. Like you mentioned, I'm passionate about it. My team is passionate about it. There's no strings attached. It's it's a completely complimentary consultation, and we jump on a call and we analyze the website, we talk about their goals, what is their current revenue? What percentage of their of their revenue they're willing to put into marketing? Now it's very, as a business operators, that's a crucial question. Once we understand that, we can assess whether we can help them rank for certain keywords. Because, you know, if your budget is, I don't know, revenue is half million a year and your solo attorney in Houston, but you want to rank for Houston, personal injury attorney, we're gonna say unfortunately, there's not much we can do to rank you for that top keyword, because your budget should be half of your year's revenue, like it's highly competitive. But same time, if you want to just focus on Google Maps and your proximity around your office, there are things you can do. So it's important that we need to align these expectations and goals together with the law firm owner or or their marketer. So once that discovery call is handled, then we go into second call, which is strategy call in this strategy call we show market research, their competitors, total addressable market, and then we showcase where they stand within that market, ranking wise, Domain Authority wise content gap wise because we need our sample. Remember, we're talking about building out the content structures. That's a big part of it, because that takes production. SEO is a lot about production. So then we understand where you are against your top competitor. And then we give you cost analysis based on how much it would cost you to fill on those gaps videos, I mean, these strategy calls are amazing. I sometimes record them, then I listen to it. I'm like, wow, that was complete SEO geek out. And we try to educate in the process, the attorney or marketer, whoever is coming on these calls this way they understand what is what do we really need to do to rank and how long it's going to take, and what really that investment is going to come down to. So and then if all things are aligned, we address q&a, we dig into certain aspects of the website of the competitors, you know, who doesn't want to learn more about their competitors. And then step three is launching the campaign, we have a really amazing customer success team, really amazing SEO team, link building team, like, we take this thing really seriously. And we have departments dedicated for each aspect of SEO, including content. So and then they all come together and build out the campaign and, you know, the campaign launches getting on boarded on in our systems, building out the strategy, you're getting access to a website, our customer success managers become really almost part of your team, we like, you know, we like to explain it as we're becoming your personal marketer, like you don't have to hire a marketer, that's then going to go out and hire three other vendors just hire us and be that marketer and our team is going to be so involved video that you're going to feel like they're part of your team. And hey, now everyone's working remote. So you might as well have a dedicated customer service manager that you can feel like they're your marketer, because our we also have really in depth reporting system called track right and build ourselves now it's available as a SaaS tool, other agencies use it. And with this tool, we can see all your leads, you can see all your rankings your traffic, like we have nothing to hide, we end this with the attorneys who want to show them what how SEO works, how PPC works. And then we got to battle together. And I say battle because really is a battle, like everyone wants to have those top spots because there's so so valuable, you know, I'm going to clicks costs two $300 It's, uh, you know, you're printing money, basically, you're in those top spots. So that's everyone wants to protect those spots, and whoever can outsmart out, workI charters are the ones that's gonna win.

Robert Plank 32:21 And I think thinking of it as a battle makes it exciting, right? Because you say, you know, I'll, I'll do my best and bring my A game and defend my territory. And if you don't think of a battle, then it's too easy to get your feelings hurt, or it's too easy to get down on yourself for what you haven't done. And it's like, you know, if you're, you're not getting the results yet, maybe because you haven't gotten to battle yet or you haven't gone in with big enough guns or enough ammo. And, and sort of those three steps you mentioned, I don't know where I've heard it. But I heard what at one point like GSA, right, there's goals or strategies, and there's action. And that's really cool of kind of your process there, especially like you said, like looking at what the competitors are doing or looking what the trends are, because I imagine that many business owners are maybe too afraid to look at what their competitors are doing because there's some emotion attached there. And even if they do look at those competitors, they might not know what they're looking at, right? Someone like you might say, well, that's that thing about having the sticky phone at the top for the phone number on every page like that you might not even notice that and you say you know, that's such an important thing. And you're missing out on that right now because your competitors are doing that. So I can definitely see how someone can and should take that step and get make the get to that very first goals call. And so how does someone do that? How does someone find out about you and your team and start that conversation?

Speaker 2 33:42 Very simple. You can use it on the map.com just fill out the form form actually will give you automated Calendly link that you can schedule a call right away, but one of our strategists you can reach out to me directly to I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, Chris brankin sort of Chris sobs Rankin's or just shoot me an email Chris at on the map.com. I'll be happy to chat about this stuff, no strings attached. As you mentioned, I'm pretty passionate about the topic. And I love educating people on search engine optimization and just I'm just a infinite learner. I want to continue learning this stuff and I want to keep getting better, you know, and only way we can do it is together with our clients. We're in this. We're in this battle together.

Robert Plank 34:30 Well, fantastic. So the very next step is to email Chris at on the map.com and also go to on the map.com. And so as we're wrapping up our conversation here, Chris, a sign up put you on the spot one last time, a little scary. It's okay. I like to ask people about you know what advice you wish you'd gotten 20 years ago if your present self now could go back 20 years in time and tell your younger self something has anything coming to mind about that advice you wish you'd received 20 years ago

Speaker 2 35:01 So the advice I would give myself I would be 13 years ago, I would be 13 years old. And I probably wouldn't even know what my older self is talking about. But I would say, learn SEO faster. SEO is such a time play. I got into this industry 14 years ago, and I was struggling through web development, app development, we had a web development company. And I didn't learn SEO. At that time, I was just very focused on the Information Systems Design UX, branded app experiences. And the SEO never really came up as as a skill or topic I shall learn. I wish I would have done it back then. Because SEO is kind of like investing, you know how long you've been holding certain stocks. You know, how long you've been building your investment portfolio, and that this skill just compounds over years, because you can build out more websites. And each year, I just feel like we're getting smarter as a collective. And myself as an individual, I just learned certain aspects of search engine optimization that I can execute.

Robert Plank 36:06 Exciting, and you can see some actual results, right, you implement the SEO better, get more traffic, get more leads, get more sales, help other people. So it's not just playing around with the UX and moving a button from here to there. It's you're actually like making the real difference in these businesses in these people's lives. And so, very excellent, very helpful, very valuable. Go right now to on the map.com to see what Chris and his team can do for you. Thank you very much, Chris, for giving us all these amazing insights. You got the gears turning with me, and I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 36:37 Well, thanks so much, Robert. It was a blast. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Robert Plank 36:45 We really appreciate you being a listener of the market or of the date Podcast the place to go right now. If you want to know more about running your own podcast is dF y podcast.com/free. Go there right now claim your free gift. DFI podcast.com/free