710: Website Redesign & Rebranding: Build Trust Using Hero’s Journey Self-Transformation and Change the World with Chris Yoko

Robert Plank 0:00 Marketer of the Day episode 710 website redesign and rebranding, build trust using hero's journey, self transformation and change the world. With Chris Yoko,

Robert Plank 0:16 yep. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the marketer of the day podcast. And I have a quick question for you, does your website really matter? Does it get across the message that you want to get across? Does it adhere to all those somewhat boring but important legalese and compliance issues and most importantly, does your website and your business have a purpose? Are you serving some kind of a great or goodwill, whether you have or you haven't, thought about any of those things. We have an expert here with us on the show. That is Chris Yoko from y o, K, O, C o.com, that's yococo.com and we're gonna hear all about the things that you can and should and hopefully will soon be doing to your website. So Chris, glad to be talking to you. Yeah, likewise. Thank you for having me. Glad to have you. And so, I mean, what has kind of been your focus, your passion these last 12 months or so? And I mean, what sorts of things do you think we need to know these days?

Chris Yoko 1:07 I mean, so the big one as it pertains to the intro you just shared, is being able to take this thing that I think a lot of organizations take for granted. Oh, we got to make sure we have a website and get it up there, and then they kind of move on to the next thing, but your web presence is the single biggest lever you have in terms of being able to communicate with the world. And when you use it correctly, you can really affect major change. And so being able to help organizations understand how to go through that process. And we've really been leaning into we started using it in 2014 but continuing to lean into Joseph Campbell's kind of a hero's journey as a roadmap for how organizations use their website and their web presence correctly to really affect the world as a whole and build a better

Robert Plank 1:50 world. So when you say Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, I've heard about this, how it's like the Star Wars template, right? Of how there's like the underdog and there's the inciting incident, and there's, like, an initial failure and then another failure in the big succession kind of thing. But when how this pertains to these businesses and these websites, what does this hero's journey mean? Exactly,

Chris Yoko 2:11 yeah, so it's, I'm glad you knew what it was, because we run into a lot of people that have no idea what it is, some people that have a vague recollection from, you know, Junior High literary classes, but it's exactly what you mentioned. It's kind of that same template. Every hero goes through these 12 steps, and the way that it starts, and the way that we saw this correlation with the organizations we work with is a lot of times you're going through a rebranding or a website redesign process, you're changing who you are and how you project and identify yourself to the world. We partnered with a research group back in 2015 I think it was, and saw that more people trust what you say on your website whenever a person has made a referral to you than any other platform, including third party review sites, which was a bit of an eye opener for us. So when you go through this process of self transformation, first, which is what the hero's journey showcases you kind of jump into the realm of the unknown. You try to solve a problem that you're not sure how to solve. You come through it. First, you change yourself, and by changing the way you project who you are to the world. People done right? Obviously, people start to change the way that they behave towards you. They realize, Oh, these people are leaders in this space, or, Oh, they can help us do X, Y and Z, or they're affecting this level of change that begins to be an active change that you see within your community. And depending on the type of organization you are, when you follow that through all the way to its kind of natural course of completion, by making these changes in your community, you're then having a deeper ripple effect across the world as a whole. And so you get a chance to kind of go through this entire process and understand that it starts with self transformation, but ultimately ends with a major change in impact and the way that you kind of work your difference in the world.

Robert Plank 3:49 And to kind of help us understand your magic, your secret sauce, can you kind of tell us, like maybe what a website or business you've dealt with looked like, or did or said before you came across and applied some of this, and then what sort of things you changed, and what was the end result?

Chris Yoko 4:06 Yeah, absolutely. So the biggest one we see, especially for small to mid sized businesses, is people say, oh, you know what it's it's there. It's a brochure. We just need to have it there, and we want to update it so we don't look at a date, right? And so we'll go through, we'll make some updates, but we'll go through a process we're really kind of understanding how the website should be supporting the organization itself, be it a business, a nonprofit, an association, whatever the case might be. And one of the biggest pieces of feedback we see afterwards is usually within like, 30 to 90 days this CEO COO, whatever, will end up being like, oh, you know what? We get a lot more word of mouth referrals now than we used to. That was an interesting, you know, side effect of us redesigning the website, and the good news we had to share with them there is like, hey, you've always been getting good word of mouth referrals. The bad news is, whenever you had the. Old site. People are looking at the site before they decided to call you, and then they just decided not to call you. So one of the real easy things you can do with an organization is kind of help increase the effect that you have with the customers, clients, patients, members you serve already, because chances are, if you're doing a good job with them, they are talking to people that might be a good prospective fit with you more than you might be talking to other folks and refer people in and if then you don't have a good website, or a website that's conducive with what that you know referral source ended up sharing, you're gonna miss out because it doesn't jive with, oh, they said this was a really great like modern organization, and here they've got this website from 1998 and this must not be the right place. I'm gonna bow out. And that's one of the really easy things you can do to kind of really begin to affect results. And then obviously, as things kind of steamroll. From there, you get to work with more and more people. You get to introduce, maybe other members of your community, or, depending on how you work, have deeper, more meaningful relationships with those people. And that, you know, positive impact ripples outward.

Robert Plank 5:57 Super cool. And I mean, you make a lot of interesting points here, especially that a few minutes ago, we were talking about how people might see things on third party review sites, but they trust what's on your website more, because who knows if some random person said this, or if that comment was from years ago, and yeah. And so, by and these, the other interesting point you make here is how, like, there might be a bottleneck on the website, right? Like how you said you had that client where the they weren't getting word of mouth because people were being lost at the website, and as soon as the website was okay, then that the water would flow through the pipe, so to speak. And it seems like, I'm sure you come across the kind of resistance where people say, well, where's my ROI? Where's my return on investment? And it's like, well, if you make, if you get all the your eyes dotted and your T's crossed, so to speak, then that that ROI that you are missing out on will increase. But it's like, hard to to to see it missing when it's when it's not there, and it's hard to see the increase other than, well, I did a few more of these things that I should be doing right and now I'm getting some results here. And so as far as like specific things that you're seeing these these websites doing, like you said that sometimes they look at a date they haven't been updated in the year. So what sorts of just I don't like, common things do you see again and again on these websites that people should be correcting these days.

Chris Yoko 7:21 I mean, so there's the really obvious ones, where, like you said, it looks at a date or it doesn't work on phones and stuff like that. But more often than not, the indicators that the website isn't doing what it needs to do is if it does feel like it's just an afterthought, if you're not getting a steady influx of whether it's leads or interested parties or partnerships or whatever, an influx of communication and traffic through your website. If it's not, if you don't know how it actually supports the business, that's a big sign that it's not being used effectively. And you should be taking a look at something if it used to be. You know, we run into a lot of organizations where, hey, whenever we redid our website five years ago, six years ago, two years ago, it was generating a lot of results. It was helping our sales team. We were getting, you know, a lot of traffic, and now that seems to have dried up. That's often a sign, you know, that something's going wrong. And of course, if it's just been, you know, neglected or been shifted into hand after hand after hand, and it's always been an afterthought, there's a chance that there's a really good opportunity for that to be a breakthrough component of the business, because it is the thing that more people are going to see than just about any other aspect of your business. You know, more people are going to see the website then become a customer, become a member, become a patient or referral source, whatever the case might be.

Robert Plank 8:32 And you made, you made this kind of interesting point a few times here about how even though you might have redone the website a couple of years ago, things are always changing, right? Like, the trend might go more into like the phones and the quick loading, but then next thing, you know, like, then phones get huge, or, like, tablets come out, and then it's all about the retina graphics. And so things change. And it's like, it's almost like, as soon as you're you're happy with the website, then you need to refresh. And that's been kind of a hard lesson for me to keep in mind that, like, you know, every couple of years, I have to go back and revisit and just look at, you know, what's working and what's not working and and keep in mind, like, similar websites, or kind of remember like that, that sort of swipe file, so to speak, and remember, like, what I didn't like about people's websites, or this person had a pop up, and I have to remember that, or this person had a quiz. So with all these things that could be done, how do you make sense of all of it? Is it a matter of like you, you kind of have a feel for what the supposed template is for different industries, or is about like, what your client is looking for, like, how do you just make sense of all the possibilities and do a handful of things that this website needs to do? Yeah, so

Chris Yoko 9:41 it is, like you said, it's an it's an ongoing arms race, right? Like, everyone's kind of constantly better in their web presence. And while technologies become more fluid, that cycle of, okay, we're going to redesign it and wait a few years and redesign it doesn't make as much sense anymore. You know, content management systems, just like apps are being updated regularly on an ongoing basis. And you should. Really do the same with your web presence, but for a lot of organizations, it comes to what you mentioned, which is, if they're not sure what they're getting out of it, they're not measuring things appropriately, then they don't really know what to do. So whenever it comes to the way that we work, usually, if we are working with an organization that they haven't tracked any metrics, they don't really know what is working, what isn't working, you can follow some best practices to get things started. And one of those best practices is to start tracking that stuff. And so one of the things that we do for a lot of our clients is we call it a full Funnel Report. Basically it starts at the top. What are our social and search impressions and views look like? How does that percolate into traffic, into the website? Does that traffic engage with us? Does it convert at any level? If it does convert, what do those become marketing qualified leads, or, depending on how a client classifies them, whatever they title them, how does that percolate and convert into sales qualified leads? How do they go through the sales process and then ultimately, what people have purchased become members, engaged partners, whatever the case might be. And then what was the return on investment of that? Once you know from top to bottom what those numbers look like, it becomes a lot easier to decide what it makes sense to do moving forward, right? Because now you know, okay, we like our conversion numbers across the board, so we think we should drive more traffic. So let's make some of the changes. Let's create some new content that's going to drive some new traffic in. Let's do a couple of things around search engine optimization that are going to help us optimize and deliver more traffic to the top of that funnel, because we feel really good about the way it percolates through all the way to the bottom. And if we get another, you know, 10,000 visitors a month, we know that's going to be another 100 customers, whatever the case might be. Or if you're not happy with the conversion rate at any given point, you begin to think about what you do there. Is it our content? Do we need to AB test and maybe do some things that are going to make it more engaging, more likely to convert once people have converted, you know, are they percolating through from marketing into sales qualified? How do we kind of massage that so being able to kind of put some best practices in place first, follow that funnel and make sure you're benchmarking your numbers from the top to the bottom, and you can kind of see some correlation. A word of warning, a lot of people want to start benchmarking and then immediately get into attribution, be like, Well, that wasn't a web lead that came from this guy that I know. And then you start to fracture everything. If you're not tracking anything right now, just start tracking everything across the whole business. Usually, people are going to touch your web presence, unless you're in a really specific niche in terms of your industry, they're going to touch your website. They're going to talk to your salespeople, or your team or whatever. It's going to be pretty fluid. So track everything across the board, perfect that model, and then you can start to modify and change things. But that's really kind of the basics. It's nothing too crazy,

Robert Plank 12:32 cool. And I'm kind of getting a feel for like, the kind of science and the art blend, right? It's like, you do the tracking, you get the data, and then based on that. You you make some educated guesses, you make some judgments, and then you say, Well, based on that, then maybe we'll do something like this with the the blog post, or we'll change these things here. And so that way you kind of, you aren't missing out on anything, right? You kind of have the the heat map side of things, so to speak, or track and check in the clicks. But then there's also the kind of, the outside the box thing. So that way you're not just too much one or the other

Chris Yoko 13:02 Absolutely. And it's that's always like the tricky bit, because people will read things online and be like, Oh, well, this works for this other organization. So why don't we just do exactly what they did? And it's, you're a different brand, you have a different relationship, a different tone of voice. And so there is that blend of art and science, and how do you do the things that are right and consistent and congruent with who you are? Because a lot of times again, if you you know, just go through and copy, or you don't have something that's authentically you, by the time they get away from the web copy, which is something that they really liked, because they raised their hand and said, We want to talk further. They talk to somebody who's now speaking a totally different language, and they begin to drop off. It's really got to be authentically you. And that's where a lot of the art comes and then just the science is the measurement and determine what steps make sense to take

Robert Plank 13:42 next. So and so we're talking a lot here about things like AB testing, or, you know, making changes and seeing what the client thinks and then changing back. So what's sort of the the time frame on some of these things? I guess it is. It ongoing? Is it six months? Like, how long does it take to get some of these websites dialed in? It really depends

Chris Yoko 14:01 on the organization. I mean, we have some organizations we work with that. They just want to kind of annually look at the numbers, make sure they're on the right path, put a couple of key strategic, you know, deliverables in place throughout the year, and then just kind of run with it. And then we've got other clients where every two weeks, we're driving enough traffic that it makes sense to kind of iterate and continuously be modifying things on an ongoing basis. So there's not a cadence that's right for every organization. If you're a, you know, single or person or a partner or a small group of people, you don't have the time, nor is it going to be a worthy return on your time to be constantly tweaking everything all the time you know, you kind of have to roll it in and make sure that you've also got enough traffic and data that it makes sense to react, so you have to give yourself time to get to that kind of statistical level of significance.

Robert Plank 14:45 Well, great. And so as far as like some of these organizations you help, some of these websites that your agency has worked on, is there any that stands out, like, really, really brightly for you? As far as like a website that you like, really. Proud of, or they just came together really well.

Chris Yoko 15:02 Oh, there's a there's a lot of this in terms of alignment. So we work a lot with, we aim to work exclusively with organizations that have a passion or purpose beyond just profit. So we do work with a lot of commercial organizations, but they tend to be ones that are trying to build a better world. And we also do work with a lot of you know, nonprofits, healthcare, associations. I think one of the ones in recent memory that is a favorite of mine is we did some work for the Andes Amazon Fund, which, you know, in light of all of the news around the Amazon and it being, you know, burnt and forested, was really excited to be able to help support those guys and being able to help defend and protect and conserve the Amazon. So that's, that's one that I really like. And, I mean, it's such a beautiful landscape, and we got a chance to kind of show some of that through the digital component and help them, you know, raise some additional funds to help protect something like a couple 100 million additional hecticers of Amazon rainforest. So that's huge,

Robert Plank 15:59 nice. And you always hear about, like, those, those kind of amazing things. People are doing these things with, like the, you know, the drones that plant a million trees in one day and just like crazy stuff like that. And so, I mean, would you recommend that, like any business out there, if they don't have one of these, these causes they're supporting and talking about other websites, should everyone maybe be start thinking about going down this road,

Chris Yoko 16:22 I think so. I think that there's a big difference between the people that do it as like a marketing thing, and the people that are really, authentically concerned and aligned with whatever mission it is they're following through with. If you've a big thing that we help a lot of organizations do is they kind of aspire to make some change, but they don't necessarily know what that should be. So, for example, we do some work with a organization called the United motor coach Association. And it's, you know, it's the group that represents all the people that own motor coaches, busses that you might rent or reserve for, you know, a party or a field trip, or whatever the case might be. And off the top, you know, it doesn't sound like there's anything really cause oriented about that, but a well and efficiently used motor coach is going to be more effective than a car, even if you only have it 20% loaded. And they're doing a lot in terms of, you know, being able to go with emission free vehicles. And the more busses move to that, you not only get the advantage of moving a lot of people in a smaller vehicle and a smaller footprint, but maybe racing the footprint altogether. So one of the things we did with them was agree to do work with them in exchange for them adding to their annual conference a speaker series on the environmental impact of the industry and how to minimize it, as well as add to their bylaws a goal to minimize their negative environmental impact and eventually get the industry to go carbon free. So there's a lot of opportunities. Even if you feel like you're an organization that there's nothing that screams to you about, hey, here's how we can support or better the world. There's a lot of opportunities. But it makes sense to think about the stuff that really resonates with you, and it's something you'd authentically want to be behind, because a lot of people do the, you know, the buy one, give one or the other. You know, the Tom's clones, and then, like, the Warby Parker clones and all that stuff. And I feel like it's got to go deeper than that,

Robert Plank 18:06 okay, yeah. And it's like, it seems like the, as you kind of describe that thought process there with that, the bus company, like, sometimes it takes a while to think that through, right? It's like, okay, like, Absolutely. What are we, like, we're providing the service, or we're doing this thing, and the negatives might be that to like the environment, and how do we offset that? And it might take a while to kind of figure out what that end result would be,

Chris Yoko 18:30 yeah, for sure. I mean, it takes time. It's not if some clients come in and they know, like, here's what we do, and here's how we can build a better world, and we want you guys to help us do it. But a lot of them come to us like, Hey, we've got some ideas, and we know that the way we portray the causes that we represent, the alignment we have online, is going to be a huge part of how people respond to and how we affect the world. But basically, they want to be able to get to a place where they figure out what that is. And so in a lot of cases, we're working with clients to kind of help determine what that mission looks like, and how they articulate it as a key component of their brand and a key component of kind of who they are and what their employees really care about. And

Robert Plank 19:06 I imagine that. I mean, you've seen this done again and again, and you it's always helps to get that person or the entity on the outside looking in. And some of these people might be kind of strapped in their own bubble and only be looking at what their industry doing is doing, or what their competitors are doing. So I imagine that by having you and your agency take a look, they can kind of think outside the box, and they can, like, come up with all kinds of different solutions, not just in the the charity or the the cost thing we've been talking about here, but also just in in website redesigns, right? Like, it always helps to have that fresh perspective.

Chris Yoko 19:42 Absolutely, it's, you know, it's, we always call it puzzle vision. So, you know, you're working on a puzzle and you're just staring at a piece, and somebody walks up from the couch or something, it's like, oh, there it is. And the fresh perspective goes a long way in helping an organization figure out at least what their options are, right? So, and that's, I think, part of the advantage of us working with a. Lot of different industries. You know, we work with startups and technology platforms and SaaS organizations, and they tend to be on kind of the cutting edge of technology. And then we can borrow some of that information and apply it where appropriate to some of our clients that might be on the other end of the bell curve in terms of technology adoption, and help them kind of leapfrog and really make progress. So not only is it, like you said, the advantage of being able to take a look at things differently from a mission or a cost per mission or a cause perspective, but just from a technology and marketing perspective in general. And how do you make sure everything's

Robert Plank 20:27 coming back to the result? Yeah, and then the result of that would be that that business that you're helping, they do something that's unique, and it's not really unique, it's just repurposed from some other industry, but no one in that industry is doing it. So in a way, I mean, it's a unique and it's not unique, right? Exactly, it's unique

Chris Yoko 20:45 to them. Yeah, yeah. And so used car, right?

Robert Plank 20:49 There you go. Yeah, again. So if these, someone's listening to our conversation today and they say, you know that these are some really great ideas, I like having options. I want to start a conversation with Chris and his team and see what they're all about, but I'm not sure if I'm a right fit or I'm not sure what Chris and his team can do for me. Can you tell us what we need to know here, as far as, like, what's the website? Where do people go? Have they know if they're the right fit and what are the actions to be taken here? Yeah, for sure. So I mean, if

Chris Yoko 21:18 you're interested in chatting with us, we're at Yoko co.com so that's why oko co.com if you're not immediately either attracted or repelled based on the language we use on the website, that'll probably give you a good idea if you're a fit. But we also have an assessment there for the types of organizations that we like to work with. And if you're interested in talking a little bit further, just use the contact form there. Drop us a line, and we'd be interested to talk to you and talk about what kind of change we can make together. Change we can make together. Super

Robert Plank 21:44 cool. So if you are ready to make that change or redo things with your business, on your website, check out y, O, K, O, C, o.com, that's yococo.com go there. Check out the language, like Chris said, see if it attracts or repels you. Take that assessment. Click the contact button and we will see you there over@yoko.com and thanks Chris for taking the time and teaching, teaching us lots of cool things. Yeah, thanks

Chris Yoko 22:09 for having me. Robert pleasure,

Robert Plank 22:14 subscribe to us right now, while it's still fresh on your mind at marketer of the day.com/itunes